# Who Killed Jesus? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 29, 2009, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168 "2009-03-29T07:47:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/582 "2009-04-10T01:15:16Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > I will read the article… I guess… It’s not that I have a problem with sources of information besides the Bible or something religious… I just assumed the article was something I already have heard before. I’ll check it out though… > > I do like this site so much already… though I haven’t devoted much time to reading the articles. I like the articles I have read and find them very informative. I don’t know why people scoff at me when I tell them to find information on the internet because It’s not like Cecil doesn’t use the internet for research. I don’t believe Cecil is the smartest human alive because all he does is research the work of other people. I don’t even believe Cecil is one human… I think it’s a group of people but, as usual, I could be wrong. > > This website is really great. I like the people and I think they’re all smart and intelligent. I just wish I didn’t get picked on so much and called ignorant… because considering what I talk about I think I display intelligence at times… again I’m probably wrong, but you all set the bar so high. See? There’s one thing we agree on! I think Cece is really Ed Ziotti and/or many other people too (not including the Science Advisory Board). I don’t think it’s using the Internet others complain about you using, though. It’s WHERE on the Internet you site. For instance, an article from, say, Wikipedia or New York Times saying “New Evidence Shown For Adam & Eve To Be Mankind’s Predecessors” instead of the same type of article coming from sites like [www.religiouszealots.org/what-a-mail-order-reverend-thinks](http://www.religiouszealots.org/what-a-mail-order-reverend-thinks). Setting the bar high? Maybe, it’s just that most Dopers have been exposed to many sources, some reliable, some not. For example, if someone decides to debate religion, just religion, I would NEVER consider something from a poster who has only read one version of the bible and never left their small church town. I would expect any debaters to have read more that one bible version, the Qu-ran, know about Jonestown, know about Catholicism, Fundamentalism, etc. Not saying they have to devote a lot of time to it, but enough time to know the basics of religions, past and present. Not saying that’s what you do, just to be clear. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/583 "2009-04-10T01:23:19Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > And that’s the scary part for many “the bible is my only needed source” type of believer. > > I’m hoping Quell can actually admit that SOME of the stories can’t possibly be true. That some of these stories are simply written by men, FOR men. > > I can respect anyone who says they believe in a higher power, but also rejects at least the Methuselah story, or Jonah and the whale. I don’t quote just the Bible. I quote the Qur’an and the book of Mormon… and anything else that can help. I believe everything in the Bible. They aren’t just stories to me. To me it’s history. I believe there are some things in the Bible that are exaggerated, and prophecy is hardly ever literal… but all in all I believe everything in the Bible is truth, written by men inspired by the love of truth and a desire to serve God, and inspired by the Holy Spirit. Why can’t some of you accept that maybe there is more to life than you think? I can understand if you don’t choose to believe, but why make those who do believe feel like anything less than a human? Why call a believer ignorant or foolish? I just don’t understand the hostility. I can tolerate it… but the way some people treat and act towards believers just isn’t humane. What’s your beef with the Methuselah story? Wow! Jonah and the Whale is such a great historical event! Jonah wasn’t even aware he was in the stomach of a whale… he thought he was in Hell… and I don’t believe the Bible says it was a whale… I believe it says it was a great fish. Whale is a misnomer. Whales don’t eat people… I cannot, nor will not, reject anything in the Bible… just because if it’s in the Bible, that’s what happened. It just isn’t logical that a book that teaches “thou shall not lie” would be filled with lies. Jesus said “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; **if it were not so, I would have told you**. Jesus admits right there, that if the things He said were not true, He would have told us so. It’s that simple to a believer. I’m sorry if you consider it so wrong or ignorant that I believe the words in a book written 2000 years ago (and yes 70-100 years after Jesus ascended to Heaven). ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/584 "2009-04-10T01:30:14Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > I cannot, nor will not, reject anything in the Bible… just because if it’s in the Bible, that’s what happened. It just isn’t logical that a book that teaches “thou shall not lie” would be filled with lies. God lied to Moses, said it was just a test and that he really doesn’t have to stab his son, didn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/585 "2009-04-10T01:40:08Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > God lied to Moses, said it was just a test and that he really doesn’t have to stab his son, didn’t he? You mean “Abraham.” The son he was asked to sacrifice was Isaac–unless you’re Muslim, in which case it was Ishmael. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/586 "2009-04-10T01:41:34Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > You mean “Abraham.” The son he was asked to sacrifice was Isaac–unless you’re Muslim, in which case it was Ishmael. Ooop! Thanks. Looks like I tend to type Moses instead of Abraham, much like I type Rush Limbaugh when I mean Newt Gingrich. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/587 "2009-04-10T01:57:36Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Ooop! Thanks. Looks like I tend to type Moses instead of Abraham, much like I type Rush Limbaugh when I mean Newt Gingrich. :smack: S’alright. But if you’re going to continue to argue with Quell, let me tesser you a bottle of scotch and some soda ome bitters and ice and so forth. You may need a drink soon. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/588 "2009-04-10T06:42:18Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > Why call a believer ignorant or foolish? Imagine if there was a vocal, politically powerful group that believed that the Harry Potter books described history. They shrugged off all attempts to explain to them that magic wasn’t real, got out of paying many taxes, and expected their beliefs to be treated as equal to actual scientific theories in schools. Would you respect these people? ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/589 "2009-04-10T06:57:23Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > God lied to Moses, said it was just a test and that he really doesn’t have to stab his son, didn’t he? No. God did not lie ABRAHAM. Sacrifices were necessary… and Abraham had no sacrifice… so he offered his son. God didn’t command Abraham to offer his son as a sacrifice… God just commanded a sacrifice… since Abraham didn’t have a proper sacrifice he had no other option but to offer up his son. God saw Abraham’s faithfulness and provided a ram. It is impossible for God to lie. God CANNOT lie. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/590 "2009-04-10T07:01:27Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Imagine if there was a vocal, politically powerful group that believed that the Harry Potter books described history. They shrugged off all attempts to explain to them that magic wasn’t real, got out of paying many taxes, and expected their beliefs to be treated as equal to actual scientific theories in schools. Would you respect these people? There are probably kids like that. I remember hearing from someone that there was actually a church of Sponge Bob… I don’t know if that was true… but people worship who or what they want. It doesn’t mean I have less respect for them… but they better have a damn good argument to support their beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/591 "2009-04-10T07:14:52Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > No. God did not lie ABRAHAM. Sacrifices were necessary… and Abraham had no sacrifice… so he offered his son. God didn’t command Abraham to offer his son as a sacrifice… God just commanded a sacrifice… since Abraham didn’t have a proper sacrifice he had no other option but to offer up his son. God saw Abraham’s faithfulness and provided a ram. > > It is impossible for God to lie. God CANNOT lie. From the [story of Abraham and Isaac (Genesis 22:1-19)](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2022:1-19;&version=31;): > [@](#): > > Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, “Abraham!” > “Here I am,” he replied. > > Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about.” (first two verses) God very clearly commands Abraham to sacrifice his son (“as a burnt offering”, so clearly there is no weaseling about “Oh, I just meant bind him to Me in a special covenant” or anything like that). And then, just as Abraham is about to cut his son’s throat, God says “Psych!” Maybe it’s just the translation. Except that every single translation in existence makes it clear that God is telling Abraham to sacrifice-as-in-kill his son. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/592 "2009-04-10T07:19:36Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > No. God did not lie ABRAHAM. Sacrifices were necessary… and Abraham had no sacrifice… so he offered his son. God didn’t command Abraham to offer his son as a sacrifice… God just commanded a sacrifice… since Abraham didn’t have a proper sacrifice he had no other option but to offer up his son. God saw Abraham’s faithfulness and provided a ram. > > It is impossible for God to lie. God CANNOT lie. Exactly why were sacrifices necessary? Is this God of yours just a bloodthirsty bastard or what? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/593 "2009-04-10T07:22:04Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > all in all I believe everything in the Bible is truth, written by men inspired by the love of truth and a desire to serve God, and inspired by the Holy Spirit. > It just isn’t logical that a book that teaches “thou shall not lie” would be filled with lies. I suggest you should study the history of the bible a bit more. I suspect you will find that the picture of a HS dictating pieces of text to inspired scribes scratching it all down, is somewhat off. Maybe you will come to the conclusion many of us have. The bible was written by men. And people usually write stuff down for a reason. Old texts often aren’t merely descriptive, they were meant to change a status quo or to justify one, to gloss over, to embellish and yes tell lies. You know just little white ones, so that those poor commoners won’t be led astray. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/594 "2009-04-10T08:12:53Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > …they better have a damn good argument to support their beliefs. And if they don’t? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/595 "2009-04-10T09:00:52Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by Grumman > > Imagine if there was a vocal, politically powerful group that believed that the Harry Potter books described history. … > > There are probably kids like that. I remember hearing from someone that there was actually a church of Sponge Bob… I don’t know if that was true… but people worship who or what they want. It doesn’t mean I have less respect for them… but they better have a damn good argument to support their beliefs. And there are _adults_ like that. People who believe some 19thcentury romantic books about Pagan religions to be true, people who believe it true that an angel gave two golden tablets to a known con-man and people who believe a collection of ancient Jewish religious writings to be the inerrant word of God. And there are people who scoff and laugh at them. Just like you call the believers of the church of Sponge Bob “kids”, we see you as a kid clinging to his Marvell comic fervently hoping it’s all true, that there is a Spiderman. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/596 "2009-04-10T09:39:15Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > No. God did not lie ABRAHAM. Sacrifices were necessary… and Abraham had no sacrifice… so he offered his son. God didn’t command Abraham to offer his son as a sacrifice… God just commanded a sacrifice… since Abraham didn’t have a proper sacrifice he had no other option but to offer up his son. God saw Abraham’s faithfulness and provided a ram. > > It is impossible for God to lie. God CANNOT lie. [Buzzer sounds] God lies in the bible all over the place. I’ll start one by one (maybe a new thread is necessary): “Thou shalt not kill.” - Commandment, yes? Let’s see… _“At the customary time for offering the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet walked up to the altar and prayed, “O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, prove today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant. Prove that I have done all this at your command. O LORD, answer me! Answer me so these people will know that you, O LORD, are God and that you have brought them back to yourself.” Immediately the fire of the LORD flashed down from heaven and burned up the young bull, the wood, the stones, and the dust. It even licked up all the water in the ditch! And when the people saw it, they fell on their faces and cried out, “The LORD is God! The LORD is God!” Then Elijah commanded, “Seize all the prophets of Baal. Don’t let a single one escape!” So the people seized them all, and Elijah took them down to the Kishon Valley and killed them there. (1 Kings 18:36-40 NLT)”_ I really don’t remember god tearing Elijah in half for this major sin etched on a stone tablet someplace. "_Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death."_ (Exodus 21:15 NAB) _" ‘You are my battle-ax and sword,’ says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers._" (Jeremiah 51:20-26) - One of my favorites. This tells us that this god, supposedly all-powerful, needs us to murder for him. From here it’s clear that even if he exists, he’s as powerful as an infant. So, “Thou shalt not kill” should be “Thou shalt not kill unless I say so, 'cause I can’t do it all by myself.” ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/597 "2009-04-10T10:09:27Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > From the [story of Abraham and Isaac (Genesis 22:1-19)](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2022:1-19;&version=31;): > > (first two verses) > > God very clearly commands Abraham to sacrifice his son (“as a burnt offering”, so clearly there is no weaseling about “Oh, I just meant bind him to Me in a special covenant” or anything like that). And then, just as Abraham is about to cut his son’s throat, God says “Psych!” > > Maybe it’s just the translation. Except that every single translation in existence makes it clear that God is telling Abraham to sacrifice-as-in-kill his son. Guess I should have read it first. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/598 "2009-04-10T11:14:10Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > So, “Thou shalt not kill” should be “Thou shalt not kill unless I say so, 'cause I can’t do it all by myself.” IIRC, the original Hebrew is closer to “thou shalt not commit murder.” Killing is just fine. Murder is a non-God-sanctioned killing (in a nut shell). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/599 "2009-04-10T11:42:17Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > IIRC, the original Hebrew is closer to “thou shalt not commit murder.” > Killing is just fine. Murder is a non-God-sanctioned killing (in a nut shell). > [@](#): > > At the customary time for offering the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet walked up to the altar and prayed, “O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, prove today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant. Prove that I have done all this at your command. O LORD, answer me! Answer me so these people will know that you, O LORD, are God and that you have brought them back to yourself.” Immediately the fire of the LORD flashed down from heaven and burned up the young bull, the wood, the stones, and the dust. It even licked up all the water in the ditch! And when the people saw it, they fell on their faces and cried out, “The LORD is God! The LORD is God!” Then Elijah commanded, “Seize all the prophets of Baal. Don’t let a single one escape!” So the people seized them all, and Elijah took them down to the Kishon Valley and killed them there. (1 Kings 18:36-40 NLT) ]Is this an example of killing, or murder? If this is justified killing('cause Godsaysso), who would _you_ be willing to kill if you felt God told you to do so? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/600 "2009-04-10T13:51:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > ]Is this an example of killing, or murder? Like I said in the quote box you provided, something sanctioned by God was not considered to be murder. So, for instance, stoning someone for certain offenses was killing them due to the Law, but was not murder. Thus, it didn’t violate the Commandment that “thou shalt not murder”. Much like our legal system draws a distinction between murder and capital punishment. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > If this is justified killing('cause Godsaysso), who would _you_ be willing to kill if you felt God told you to do so? And this is where you leap right off the rails. I was explaining the context of the original Hebrew. It would have been (only slightly) more absurd for you to ask me that if that’s the context of the passage, then what type of burnt offering do I make most often because God tells me to. It’s silly for you to ask an atheist that question. Even sillier to ask that question simply because I provided a factual, contextual bit of information. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/601 "2009-04-10T13:51:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > ]Is this an example of killing, or murder? > If this is justified killing('cause Godsaysso), who would _you_ be willing to kill if you felt God told you to do so? I’ll take this. Any day I’m facing down the leaders of baby-sacrificing, temple-whore cult in a miracle contest, and my God out-miracles them & gives me the ability to slaughter a bunch of them, by God, I’ll do it! And I’ll post about it here! Keep watching. I expect it to happen any day now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168.md?page=31)