# Who Killed Jesus? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 29, 2009, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168 "2009-03-29T07:47:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/602 "2009-04-10T14:46:49Z")
> [@chowder](#): > > Exactly why were sacrifices necessary? > > Is this God of yours just a bloodthirsty bastard or what? I’m waiting for an answer ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/603 "2009-04-10T15:40:19Z")
My take on it is, that Abraham knew all along that his son would be spared. He rushes to the mountain only to show his faith. He raises the knife in perfect confidence that G-d will stop him. RE Thou Shalt Not Kill **Finnagain** is right. The original Hebrew is “Thou shalt not commit murder”. It’s perfectly acceptable to kill in self defense and many other circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/604 "2009-04-10T16:29:19Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Yes, yes, the horse is still beaten… > > YET, gotta love irony. The Master posted this [classic article](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/87/do-women-have-an-extra-rib-because-eve-got-one-of-adams)yesterday. > Lucanus, please read and reflect (maybe we should just start a new post for this). > > Also, more info on the [Adam & Eve myth here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enki). > > Please note none of my cites are from religious sources or atheistic sources.\*\*\*\* > > As far as you coming directly from the bloodline of Adam & Eve, doesn’t that mean your ancestors are inbred through incest? You did say a while back (maybe 542 pages ago) that incest was necessary to procreate… Well…perhaps your cites _“are [not] from religious sources or atheistic sources.”_ :dubious: But copying and pasting a hyperlink is hardly an aswer, don’t you think? How about distilling your wiki link and give us _your_ thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/605 "2009-04-10T20:25:29Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Well…perhaps your cites _“are [not] from religious sources or atheistic sources.”_ :dubious: > > But copying and pasting a hyperlink is hardly an aswer, don’t you think? > > How about distilling your wiki link and give us _your_ thoughts? By reading the links, and (unfortunately) this entire thread, it is clear (sort of) that our OP (Lucanae) believes that the bible is the direct word of god. It is authentic. Through the study of mythology over the years, I haven’t found a story, situation, parable, etc.. that WASN’T inspired by a previous myth. I started with Adam & Eve since it’s near the beginning and since Lucanae has said that he and all mankind “are direct descendants of Adam & Eve.” So, even if that were possible genetically, it appears we might not be A & E’s descendants, but really the descendants of the sperm yanked out of the womb of Uttu, placed in the ground by a goddess (Ninhursag). Just as silly as saying we came from the Mattel Toy company. But Ninti (Lady Rib) is the newly fabricated goddess that heals Enki’s rib, seems to be the source for the Adam & Eve story. Why? Why a rib in the first place? Why did the creators of the bible choose a rib as the source of women? Most likely from Enki’s story. I think I would’ve went with eyelash as the source of women, maybe a lock of hair. Ribs aren’t exactly visible. It also shows a little history, IMHO, of the gods we’ve created over the millennia. If you’re a Jew, creating a new book of morals, guides, salvation, etc., a goddess is unlikely, especially as a chief deity. Maybe this is why they chose an old guy with facial hair. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/606 "2009-04-10T21:02:17Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > I don’t quote just the Bible. I quote the Qur’an and the book of Mormon… and anything else that can help. I believe everything in the Bible. They aren’t just stories to me. To me it’s history. I believe there are some things in the Bible that are exaggerated, and prophecy is hardly ever literal… but all in all I believe everything in the Bible is truth, written by men inspired by the love of truth and a desire to serve God, and inspired by the Holy Spirit. I’ve been meaning to ask/point out, do you realize that the mormons _explicitly_ don’t believe that the bible is the inerrant word of god? They believe that it’s the word of god “if translated correctly”, and the same dude who released the BoM to the world started writing his own “correct” translation of it, that wasn’t even slightly a translation of any currently known version or or source material. I see belief that the BoM is a valid holy book and that the Bible is inerrant as being explicitly contradictory positions - if the BoM is true, then JS was a supremely connected prophet and was undoubtedly correct when he stated that the bible was errant. Seeing you quote the BoM while claiming biblical inerrancy tells me that you are unconcerned with the truth of your cites and sources, so long as they support your position. I see this as terrifically damaging to your credibility on this subject. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/607 "2009-04-10T22:27:08Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > No. God did not lie ABRAHAM. Sacrifices were necessary… and Abraham had no sacrifice… so he offered his son. God didn’t command Abraham to offer his son as a sacrifice… God just commanded a sacrifice… since Abraham didn’t have a proper sacrifice he had no other option but to offer up his son. God saw Abraham’s faithfulness and provided a ram. I’m curious why, if you have such faith in scripture, you keep changing or denying it. We already have the example of you changing the scriptural word “perfect” to the different word “holy” to avoid one issue. Now you are inventing a story that is completely at odds with the text of Genesis 22: > [@](#): > > [sup]1[/sup]And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. > > [sup]2[/sup]And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. So, according to your version, Abraham, (who had already started off from Ur with a host of servants and cattle and had wandered around Canaan and Egypt with his whole host, plundering the occasional evil-doer to gather more and receiving gifts of sheep and oxen from Abimelech just two chapters previously), suddenly had no offerings available and has to choose his son when the scripture actually says that God explicitly directed him to sacrifice is son. This does not even count as “interpretation,” and your credibility is falling like a rock. (You should use it to explore for oil.) ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/608 "2009-04-11T01:11:50Z")
> [@chowder](#): > > Exactly why were sacrifices necessary? > > Is this God of yours just a bloodthirsty bastard or what? Animal sacrifices were required for the atonement of sin. God never asks for human sacrifices… with the exception of Abraham and Isaac… but God was testing his faithfulness. God never intended on letting Abraham go through with the human sacrifice, that’s why when God saw Abraham was willing to sacrifice his only son God provided the ram. Notice how God wanted Abraham to sacrifice his _only_ son. God saw Abraham was willing to do it… later in the Bible God gives His _only_ Son as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind. God is bloodthirsty for righteousness. I’m sure He also enjoys a tasty beef brisket every once in a while… I think most of the animal sacrifices made resulted in God devouring them in flame. I also think it mentions in the Bible that the smell of sacrifices is pleasing to God. Besides Abraham and Isaac and Jesus… I don’t think God asked for a human sacrifices. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/609 "2009-04-11T04:00:13Z")
Was God testing Abraham, or was Abraham testing God? ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/610 "2009-04-11T04:13:35Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > By reading the links, and (unfortunately) this entire thread, it is clear (sort of) that our OP (Lucanae) believes that the bible is the direct word of god. It is authentic. > > Through the study of mythology over the years, I haven’t found a story, situation, parable, etc.. that WASN’T inspired by a previous myth. I started with Adam & Eve since it’s near the beginning and since Lucanae has said that he and all mankind “are direct descendants of Adam & Eve.” So, even if that were possible genetically, it appears we might not be A & E’s descendants, but really the descendants of the sperm yanked out of the womb of Uttu, placed in the ground by a goddess (Ninhursag). > > Just as silly as saying we came from the Mattel Toy company. But Ninti (Lady Rib) is the newly fabricated goddess that heals Enki’s rib, seems to be the source for the Adam & Eve story. Why? Why a rib in the first place? Why did the creators of the bible choose a rib as the source of women? Most likely from Enki’s story. I think I would’ve went with eyelash as the source of women, maybe a lock of hair. Ribs aren’t exactly visible. > > It also shows a little history, IMHO, of the gods we’ve created over the millennia. If you’re a Jew, creating a new book of morals, guides, salvation, etc., a goddess is unlikely, especially as a chief deity. Maybe this is why they chose an old guy with facial hair. Technically… since Adam and Eve were the first humans from which all of mankind descends, any myth would be based off of them… there’s only one truth and all myths are based off of that truth. The idea of Zeus was a myth based off of the one and only God. The gods and goddesses are myths about historical people. The Bible call these people the “…sons of God” and “…mighty men who were of old, men of renown”–Genesis 6:2 & 4. The goddesses would have been the women they took for their selves. These are also the Nephilim that **Kanic** refers to. Also, all people and all races alive today are descendants of Noah and those who were saved on the ark (although technically we’re all still from A&E). Those were the only 8 people to survive the flood (yes, I believe it was global… don’t give me the “local” flood crap). Oh, and the reason for God choosing to create Eve from Adam’s rib is so that “[she would be]…bone of my (Adam’s) bones; and flesh of my flesh”–Genesis 2:23. God created Adam, decided man should not be alone, brought all the animals to Adam in search of a “helper”, couldn’t find a helper in the animal kingdom, so God causes Adam to fall in a deep sleep and creates Eve from Adam’s rib so that Adam could have a helper made from his own bone and flesh. Did God Himself cut open Adam with a scalpel and clone Eve from his rib? No… not likely. God has His own helpers. Perhaps it was a bear who did the surgery… maybe a moose… but more likely a penguin. …I hope I made myself clear the first time when I stated I believe EBEs were God’s helpers used to clone woman from Adam’s rib. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/611 "2009-04-11T04:23:23Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I’m curious why, if you have such faith in scripture, you keep changing or denying it. We already have the example of you changing the scriptural word “perfect” to the different word “holy” to avoid one issue. Now you are inventing a story that is completely at odds with the text of Genesis 22: > So, according to your version, Abraham, (who had already started off from Ur with a host of servants and cattle and had wandered around Canaan and Egypt with his whole host, plundering the occasional evil-doer to gather more and receiving gifts of sheep and oxen from Abimelech just two chapters previously), suddenly had no offerings available and has to choose his son when the scripture actually says that God explicitly directed him to sacrifice is son. > > This does not even count as “interpretation,” and your credibility is falling like a rock. (You should use it to explore for oil.) I don’t change it or deny it. I thought the passage you were referring to was Hebrews 12:14. I wasn’t avoiding anything. I’m sure God does expect us to be perfect, be He knows we can’t because we’re all born into sin. That’s why it’s more important to be holy than attempt to be perfect. Being holy _is_ being perfect in this life… at least in the eyes of God. I am obviously ignorant about the story of Abraham and Isaac… I was assuming. It was my mistake, not the Bible’s mistake. I’m not trying to change the Bible… I’m just not familiar with that passage. If I read my Bible more I would probably have known. I don’t think I’ve been considered a “credible” person since my first post. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/612 "2009-04-11T04:26:09Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > don’t give me the “local” flood crap). How could you tell? Your crap sensor is obviously malfunctioning. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/613 "2009-04-11T04:30:49Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Was God testing Abraham, or was Abraham testing God? Whatever it was it was God trying to build a relationship with man. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/614 "2009-04-11T04:35:04Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > Whatever it was it was God trying to build a relationship with man. His e-mail was broken? ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/615 "2009-04-11T04:38:13Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I’ve been meaning to ask/point out, do you realize that the mormons _explicitly_ don’t believe that the bible is the inerrant word of god? They believe that it’s the word of god “if translated correctly”, and the same dude who released the BoM to the world started writing his own “correct” translation of it, that wasn’t even slightly a translation of any currently known version or or source material. > > I see belief that the BoM is a valid holy book and that the Bible is inerrant as being explicitly contradictory positions - if the BoM is true, then JS was a supremely connected prophet and was undoubtedly correct when he stated that the bible was errant. > > Seeing you quote the BoM while claiming biblical inerrancy tells me that you are unconcerned with the truth of your cites and sources, so long as they support your position. I see this as terrifically damaging to your credibility on this subject. I’m not a Mormon… why should I believe like one? I believe any translation of the Bible is the word of God if each and every passage is translated honestly and means the same thing as the original. I’m not a KJV 1611 only Christian… although that’s how I was raised. As long as the message of the Bible stays the same, it’s the word of God. You’re going to learn the SAME thing if not a more literal and precise translation in the NIV, KJV, NKJV, etc. Perhaps Joseph Smith wanted to write a more accurate Bible? Perhaps he wanted to put the “plain and most precious” teachings of the Bible back in? Maybe he saw the errors made by men interested in mass publication of a book for a pocket full of gold? I don’t know. I do know a lot of rumors were started about Joseph Smith to try to discredit him. Even by the churches I was raised in. However, after reading the book of Mormon for myself, I have come to the conclusion that it cannot not be considered words of God. I am concerned with the truth. That is why I’m looking for it. “Seek and ye shall find”. If I misquote the Bible it wasn’t intentional just to support my position. The truth I want to discover is having a relationship with God… and there are three holy books that all testify to God and there is truth in them. …again with the credibility. No one has at any point considered me credible. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/616 "2009-04-11T04:45:32Z")
[Hook, line, sinker.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11027357&postcount=35) ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/617 "2009-04-11T06:24:38Z")
[quote=“Lacunae\_Quell, post:608, topic:491168”] Animal sacrifices were required for the atonement of sin. QUOTE] Why? BTW. You’re full of contradictions ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/618 "2009-04-11T07:40:04Z")
I think it was these guys, y’all: [http://www.jbs.org/index.php/about](http://www.jbs.org/index.php/about) Quasi ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/619 "2009-04-11T07:44:02Z")
[http://http://www.jbs.org/index.php/about](http://http://www.jbs.org/index.php/about) ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/620 "2009-04-11T08:02:21Z")
Sorry for the double post, and again - you guys need to find a way to block my dumb ass outta here! I just _see_ an opportunity to crack a joke, and the next thing I know, I’m involved in something so serious, it makes me wanna apologize for even using this much oxygen, y’all are so smart! Bowing and backing out the golden door… Y’all just keep on keepin’ on! 🙂 Q ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/621 "2009-04-11T13:51:53Z")
Arschloch… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168.md?page=32)