# Who Killed Jesus? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 29, 2009, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168 "2009-03-29T07:47:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/122 "2009-03-30T04:32:11Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You, too, may leave the personal sniping for **The BBQ Pit**. > > [/Moderating] Understood, TnD, I was only hoping to finally get a response from the poor kid. He’s been beyond sarcastic in all of his other responses though… You’ve warned him, too, so I hope he will comply to that, but let’s let this keep going. Talk about “LOL”! ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/123 "2009-03-30T04:43:17Z")
> [@glee](#): > > The proof of that statement is (as I said) in the posts on this messageboard. > Interestingly my statement says nothing about your intellectual prowess, yet you obviously think it does. > So you need to work on your comprehension. > > Who are these MANY people? 😕 > Fundamentalists believe God created man about 6000 years ago. > Scientists have proof that man and apes share a common ancestor. > > Perhaps you should look at the genes, rather than the facial resemblance. > > **Because they share a common ancestor.** > Sheesh - where did you get the idea that man was descended from apes? > Why do you think that sharing a genus means one is descended from the other? perhaps you should prove to me how the similarities in the genes between humans and great apes proves human and ape evolved from a common ancestor… and even more importantly, maybe you should mention the fact that there are crucial gaps and differences in great ape and human genes! Just because something is similar doesn’t mean it is the same or came from a common ancestor. looks like the hardcore Jesus Freak is going to be the first person to use scientific evidence. And you would think that those who support it so dearly would have been bombarding us with Scientific fact… at least I haven’t seen anyone use their “scientific proof” or “evidence” or “fact”. So I will use it for you… and you will see your ignorance, and you will continue to deny the truth and your ignorance. To map the chimp genome, researchers used DNA from the blood of a male common chimpanzee (Pan troglodytes) named Clint, who lived at the Yerkes National Primate Research Center in Atlanta. Clint died last year from heart failure at the relatively young age of 24. A comparison of Clint’s genetic blueprints with that of the human genome shows that our closest living relatives share 96 percent of our DNA. The number of genetic differences between humans and chimps is ten times smaller than that between mice and rats. Scientists also discovered that some classes of genes are changing unusually quickly in both humans and chimpanzees, as compared with other mammals. These classes include genes involved in the perception of sound, transmission of nerve signals, and the production of sperm. \*\*Despite the similarities in human and chimp genomes, the scientists identified some 40 million differences among the three billion DNA molecules, or nucleotides, in each genome. The vast majority of those differences are not biologically significant, but researchers were able to identify a couple thousand differences that are potentially important to the evolution of the human lineage.\*\* Time to bust out the Qur’an… Allah Almighty Said: “We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and inside their selves, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth. Is it not sufficient as regards your Lord that He is a witness over all things? (The Noble Quran, 41:53)” “O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence God, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for God ever watches over you. (The Noble Quran, 4:1)” Say: “Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as judged) by the treatment it received from God? those who incurred the curse of God and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil;- these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path!” (The Noble Quran, 5:60)" "When in their insolence they transgressed (all) prohibitions, We said to them: “Be ye apes, despised and rejected.” (The Noble Quran, 7:166) “And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: “Be ye apes, despised and rejected.” (The Noble Quran, 2:65)” God Almighty created my parents in His likeness from the dust and the rib of His creation. We got something in common though… I also believe God created pigs and apes, and with God, nothing is impossible, so it is QUITE POSSIBLE that He allowed certain stubborn beasts to evolve into even more stubborn humans. just a theory. But hey… it’s supported by your precious “scientific evidence”. DNA information and Qur’an passages were taken from[http://www.answering-christianity.org/dna\_of\_humans\_pigs\_monkeys\_is\_similar.htm](http://www.answering-christianity.org/dna_of_humans_pigs_monkeys_is_similar.htm) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/124 "2009-03-30T04:54:06Z")
> [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > perhaps you should prove to me how the similarities in the genes between humans and great apes proves human and ape evolved from a common ancestor… and even more importantly, maybe you should mention the fact that there are crucial gaps and differences in great ape and human genes! Just because something is similar doesn’t mean it is the same or came from a common ancestor. > > looks like the hardcore Jesus Freak is going to be the first person to use scientific evidence. And you would think that those who support it so dearly would have been bombarding us with Scientific fact… at least I haven’t seen anyone use their “scientific proof” or “evidence” or “fact”. So I will use it for you… and you will see your ignorance, and you will continue to deny the truth and your ignorance. > > To map the chimp genome, researchers used DNA from the blood of a male common chimpanzee (Pan troglodytes) named Clint, who lived at the Yerkes National Primate Research Center in Atlanta. Clint died last year from heart failure at the relatively young age of 24. > > A comparison of Clint’s genetic blueprints with that of the human genome shows that our closest living relatives share 96 percent of our DNA. The number of genetic differences between humans and chimps is ten times smaller than that between mice and rats. > **[Wie man Video-Landingpages erstellt, die garantiert mehr Leads konvertieren -...](https://die-erklaervideo-agentur.com/wie-man-video-landingpages-erstellt-die-garantiert-mehr-leads-konvertieren/)** > > Video-Landingpages fordern nicht nur die Aufmerksamkeit der Besucher Ihrer Website, sondern können ein unglaubliches Werkzeug sein, um Besucher für sich zu gewinnen und sie von potenziellen Kunden zu echten Kunden und dann hoffentlich zu... > [@](#): > > humans and chimpanzees do not look much alike. Yet their genetic make-up (genome) differs by only 1.3 percent. Geneticists, however, have known for quite a while already that this is not what really counts: In order to ascertain the actual differences between both species, the translation of the genetic make-up in the building of proteins must be considered. That this is also possible is a new development, since the genetic make-up of our closest living relatives has only recently been identified in its entirety.Researchers at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig examined the activity of around 21,000 genes in the heart, liver, kidneys, testicles and brain of both species. The result: Of all organs, the difference between humans and chimpanzees is the smallest in the brain - at least with regard to the structure and activity of the genes. You are missing on purpose that the bigger differences we have to mice and rats than from the apes is evidence that then the mice separated at an early date from the common ancestor that we also shared with them. All life has a common ancestor, DNA shows that. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/125 "2009-03-30T04:59:20Z")
> [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > God Almighty created my parents in His likeness from the dust and the rib of His creation. We got something in common though… I also believe God created pigs and apes, and with God, nothing is impossible, so it is QUITE POSSIBLE that He allowed certain stubborn beasts to evolve into even more stubborn humans. There is \*\*no \*\*evidence for this. Evolution made apes and humans, there is no evidence that then some apes turned into humans. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/126 "2009-03-30T05:00:25Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > - Yawn \* There’s nothing “daring” about pointing out in this thread that there is no God and there is no afterlife. That’s what all the evidence shows, like it or not. You want to know where you are going ? Assuming immortality isn’t cracked by science relatively soon, you’ll die, and you’ll be nonexistent. That’s all. i would like you to present that evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/127 "2009-03-30T05:25:22Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > … there is no evidence that then some apes turned into humans. Umm, yeah, there is. Lots of it. I don’t think you meant what you just posted ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/128 "2009-03-30T05:35:38Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Umm, yeah, there is. Lots of it. > > I don’t think you meant what you just posted 😕 Do you understand what _common ancestor_ means? A descendant can not then become an ancestor of a different branch. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/129 "2009-03-30T05:51:50Z")
> [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > i would like you to present that evidence. While we’re on the subject of what we’d like, I like you to [answer the question](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10984669&postcount=72) I asked you way back on post #72. It’s not a trick question, it does not contains a hidden premise, and it’s fairly simple to answer. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/130 "2009-03-30T05:56:57Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > 😕 > > Do you understand what _common ancestor_ means? A descendant can not then become an ancestor of a different branch. Technically speaking, the common ancestor of both chimpanzees and humans - two species of ape - was also an ape, now extinct. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/131 "2009-03-30T05:57:43Z")
> **[Evolution: Frequently Asked Questions](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/faq/cat03.html)** > [@](#): > > 1. Could apes ever evolve into some other humanlike creature? > > It is possible that in many millions of years present day apes could evolve into some other humanlike species. It is, however, very improbable. First of all, **humans did not evolve from any of the species we know as apes today**. At some point 5 to 8 million years ago, the common ancestor of humans and modern apes diverged to form the two separate lineages we know today. The species at the end of these lineages are a result of a very specific combination of selection pressures and genetic mutations over millions of years. This same combination is highly unlikely to occur ever again. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/132 "2009-03-30T06:01:58Z")
**GIGO** : no, he’s right. Your statement about ancestors and descendants is just… weird, and somewhat of a non sequitor . The evolution of hominids (all of which were apes of one sort or another and which included Homo ) occurred from a common ancestor. The group of hominids branched out, giving us the modern humans and great apes. As such, there is a massive amount of evidence that, yes, apes did indeed turn into humans. And other branches turned into chimps, gorillas, orangutans, etc… Hominidae split into Ponginae and Homininae. Homininae, in turn, split into Hominini (humans), Panini (chimps) and Gorillini (gorillas). All of them, however, branched off from the Hominidae line, which were higher primates. Likewise, Hominidae branched off from another common ancestor when it split with Hylobatidae (lower primates). But, all of these groupings were _apes_. If you meant to say that _modern_ great apes didn’t turn into humans, you’d be 100% correct. But saying that humans did not evolve from apes is 100% incorrect. We did. So did modern great apes. It’s just that our evolutionary branching brought us in different directions. You are conflating “any species of ape we know today” with “apes”. And you are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/133 "2009-03-30T06:07:56Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Technically speaking, the common ancestor of both chimpanzees and humans - two species of ape - was also an ape, now extinct. Technically, but in the context of this discussion Lacunas Quell is not talking about that, and it is not common to call that ancestor an ape, but I have seen the term “common ape ancestor” being used. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/134 "2009-03-30T06:10:13Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > it is not common to call that ancestor an ape I have _never_ heard Hominidae or their immediate progenitors referred to as anything, at all, other than apes. Cite that, in scientific terminology, Hominidae or their immediate progenitors are not considered to be apes? I will grant that our OP is probably using it in a different, non-scientific context. And, especially with his reference to “pigs and apes”… as other posters have pointed out his claims that they evolved into less-cool humans than he is are highly, highly suspect. And quite distributing in their implications. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/135 "2009-03-30T06:13:34Z")
> [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > this is why i encourage people to take the excruciating time to read ALL of my post. not just skim through it… Why should I bother to read something as badly written as your post? But in addition to being badly written, it is just long and boring and repetitive. Why don’t you just state your point that God loves us and we shouldn’t have put him to death. See, it is really simple. And I only look like I am one-tenth as loony as you. God gave you the ability to write. Write clearly and concisely, or you are wasting your talents and making people turn away from God with your crappy writing. There are believers like me trying to read your writing, and I just cannot stand your writing. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/136 "2009-03-30T06:16:41Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > If you meant to say that _modern_ great apes didn’t turn into humans, you’d be 100% correct. But saying that humans did not evolve from apes is 100% incorrect. We did. So did modern great apes. It’s just that our evolutionary branching brought us in different directions. > > You are conflating “any species of ape we know today” with “apes”. > And you are wrong. I did indeed meant to say that great apes didn’t turn into humans, I knew I should not had humored Lacunas Quell. However, I would think that just calling the common ancestor an ape also can lead to confusion. I would think that there are more qualifiers that just that, but then I’m happy to go with “common ape ancestor” provided Lacunas Quell acknowledges that we did not evolve from the great apes or even Chimps. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/137 "2009-03-30T06:17:43Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > 😕 > > Do you understand what _common ancestor_ means? A descendant can not then become an ancestor of a different branch. Wrong, and wrong. Your statement that “there is no evidence that then some apes turned into humans” is just plain wrong. It is indisputable that some apes turned into humans. Moreover large numbers of scientists believe that some apes became humans and some remained apes, and that [some of those that remained apes became ancestors of other human lineages at a later date](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiregional_hypothesis). IOW the ape descendant of the original ape-human split later became an ancestor of a different branch of humanity. In fact this was the majority scientific viewpoint within my lifetime andit is still the view held by a large minority of scientsits. It’s not real fair critisicing Lacunas Quell for believing something that majority of evolutionary biologists believed, and that large numbers still do believe. ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/138 "2009-03-30T06:20:22Z")
What can humans have come from _other_ than some ape-like creature? All the ape-like creatures obviously came from some common ancestor that was large, bipedal, lumbering. We didn’t suddenly spring out of a newt. Obviously we had ape-like ancestors. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/139 "2009-03-30T06:21:05Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I will grant that our OP is probably using it in a different, non-scientific context. And, especially with his reference to “pigs and apes”… as other posters have pointed out his claims that they evolved into less-cool humans than he is are highly, highly suspect. And quite distributing in their implications. It is, isn’t it? We know who that phrase usually refers to. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/140 "2009-03-30T06:21:45Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I did indeed meant to say that great apes didn’t turn into humans And that is equally wrong. Great apes indisputably did turn into humans. H. erectus was great ape. H. habilis was a great ape. A. afarensis was a great ape. All are direct human ancestors. All are great apes. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/141 "2009-03-30T06:24:16Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > It is, isn’t it? We know who that phrase usually refers to. Nerds?😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168.md?page=8)