# Who killed Jesus? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [January 1, 2012, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/608033 "2012-01-01T12:43:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Hammered001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/aeb1de/32.png) [@Hammered001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hammered001)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/608033/21 "2012-01-06T11:05:35Z")
Sir, Pilate wrote a letter to Tiberius Caesar detailing Jesus physically. Much of this has only recently came to light for the masses after being locked up in the Vatican for centuries. Therefore, and due to other ancient writings, he existed. I do not believe he was conceived from immaculate conception, nor do I believe his physical body was raised from the dead. Oh, Pilate describes Jesus as having strikingly different physical characteristics from the Jews. Could it have been that Jesus felt that his task on this earth was to try to prevent Jewish heirarchy from spreading their manipulation of human beings by adopting an attitude of persecution and gold as world common denominator? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/608033/22 "2012-01-06T12:20:37Z")
> [@Hammered001](#): > > Sir, Pilate wrote a letter to Tiberius Caesar detailing Jesus physically. Much of this has only recently came to light for the masses after being locked up in the Vatican for centuries. Therefore, and due to other ancient writings, he existed. I do not believe he was conceived from immaculate conception, nor do I believe his physical body was raised from the dead. Oh, Pilate describes Jesus as having strikingly different physical characteristics from the Jews. Could it have been that Jesus felt that his task on this earth was to try to prevent Jewish heirarchy from spreading their manipulation of human beings by adopting an attitude of persecution and gold as world common denominator? Cite, please. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/608033/23 "2012-01-06T13:47:13Z")
> [@](#): > > gold as world common denominator This is odd in more ways than one. First, because gold tends to be divided between people, so I think it is more the common numerator. Second, because paranoid individuals seeking to wrest “control of currency by the Jews” normally advocate having a physical stock of gold as a representation of the valorisation of labour. The normal spiel is that the principle is to be opposed is usury / capital’s control of the means of production (and creditor’s control of capital). After all, with mines in worker control and no interest ridden debt, the only way to accumulate gold without trading for something the gold miner finds equally valuable is to steal it. I’d also point out that Jesus didn’t reserve his criticism for the Jews… First of all, racial theory is ridiculous. There are fewer genes encoding for race than height and overlapping error bars due to the large variations between individuals of various “races” no matter how one chooses to define a race. Even if Jesus were proposing to combat the Jewish octopus (about 18m people worldwide identify as Jews: there are more Jedi Knights than Jews in England), presumably his followers would display semitic qualities. Jewish heritage is counted by mother, not father as well (destroying Matthew’s genealogy), so unless there is a special sort of Lamarckism at work where people that are born without avarice look less semitic or those that evolve into less semitic people become less avaricious that quote would be bunk. Also, most of the people that agreed with his views would have both a Jewish father and a Jewish mother, so the idea of genetic predisposition is untenable. Not to mention that Muhammad was a semite that vehemently opposed usury too (and loved figs). Jesus didn’t really speak much about economics, though did support charity at any cost (giving more than what is asked for - Luke 6:34-35 without expecting in return)… He also may have been in favour of progressive taxation, since he claimed that a woman paying two motes had paid more than those that put larger sums of money into coffers. The following phrase: > [@](#): > > Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest Is used to support the idea that he was fine with interest. He also didn’t have anything bad to say about slavery. The idea that he was an intellectual rather than a prophet has enjoyed some currency, with Thomas Jefferson, Bertrand Russell and Noam Chomsky all supporting the secular moral philosophy he espoused (and individuals like Rand and Nietzsche dissenting, marrying his moral philosophy to his quite disturbing theology and deciding that the poor in spirit are doomed). That said, he spends a lot of time admonishing hypocrites and those that would cause a child to lose their faith (I haven’t seen any factor analysis of the individuals he opposes most). A large minority of individuals identifying as Jewish are secular, so its highly unlikely that there is a religious disposition to charging interest (though there may be a cultural one, since early Christians and Muslims opposed it so had to borrow money from Jewish people in a time when people largely continued the trade of their fathers). So for accuracy, I think Jesus would have just as vehemently decried Kenneth Lay (father a baptist preacher) and Jeffrey Skilling as Andrew Fastow or Lloyd Blankfein. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/608033/24 "2012-01-06T14:46:56Z")
> [@Hammered001](#): > > Sir, Pilate wrote a letter to Tiberius Caesar detailing Jesus physically. Much of this has only recently came to light for the masses after being locked up in the Vatican for centuries. Therefore, and due to other ancient writings, he existed. I do not believe he was conceived from immaculate conception, nor do I believe his physical body was raised from the dead. Oh, Pilate describes Jesus as having strikingly different physical characteristics from the Jews. Could it have been that Jesus felt that his task on this earth was to try to prevent Jewish heirarchy from spreading their manipulation of human beings by adopting an attitude of persecution and gold as world common denominator? Are you referring to the [Acts of Pilate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Pilate)? > [@](#): > > An appended text purports to be a written report made by Pontius Pilate to Claudius, containing an anti-Semitic description of the crucifixion, as well as an account of the resurrection of Jesus; both are presented as if in an official report.[3] One series of Latin manuscripts includes as an appendix or continuation, the episode Cura Sanitatis Tiberii (“The Cure of Tiberius”), the oldest form of the Veronica legend, according to the Catholic Encyclopedia, in which Emperor Tiberius is cured of his malady. (Compare the legend of the Image of Edessa.) All of these are considered forgeries, btw, by modern scholars. The following, [from here](http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/actspilate.html): > [@](#): > > ``` > We should especially like to know if Pilate sent home to Rome any report of the trial and execution of Jesus, and, if so, what it contained. **But it is not certain that he must have done so; and if he did, it has disappeared beyond trace.** > > Certainly some ancient writers believed that Pilate did send in such a report, but **there is no evidence that any of them had any real knowledge of it**. About AD 150 Justin Martyr, addressing his Defence of Christianity to the Emperor Antoninius Pius, referred him to Pilate's report, which Justin supposed must be preserved in the imperial archives. 'But the words, "They pierced my hands and my feet," ' he says, 'are a description of the nails that were fixed in His hands and His feet on the cross; and after He was crucified, those who crucified Him cast lots for His garments, and divided them among themselves; and that these things were so, you may learn from the "Acts" which were recorded under Pontius Pilate." Later he says: 'That He performed these miracles you may easily be satisfied from the "Acts" of Pontius Pilate." > > Then Tertullian, the great jurist-theologian of Carthage, addressing his Defence of Christianity to the man authorities in the province of Africa about AD 197, says: 'Tiberius, in whose time the Christian name first made its appearance in the world, laid before the Senate tidings from Syria Palestina which had revealed to him the truth of the divinity there manifested, and supported the motion by his own vote to begin with. The Senate rejected it because it had not itself given its approval. Caesar held to his own opinion and threatened danger to the accusers of the Christians." > > **It would no doubt be pleasant if we could believe this story of Tertullian, which he manifestly believed to be true but a story so inherently improbable and inconsistent with what we know of Tiberius, related nearly 170 years after the event, does not commend itself to a historian's judgment.** > > When the influence of Christianity was increasing rapidly in the Empire, one of the last pagan emperors, Maximin II, two years before the Edict of Milan, attempted to bring Christianity into disrepute by publishing what he alleged to be the true 'Acts of Pilate', representing the origins of Christianity in an unsavoury guise. These 'Acts', which were full of outrageous assertions about Jesus, had to be read and memorized by schoolchildren. **They were manifestly forged, as Eusebius historian pointed out at the time** ;' among other things, their dating was quite wrong, as they placed the death of Jesus in the seventh year of Tiberius (AD 20), whereas the testimony of Josephus' is plain that Pilate not become procurator of Judaea till Tiberius' Twelfth year (not to mention the evidence of Luke iii. 1, according to which John the Baptist began to preach in fifteenth year of Tiberius). We do not know in detail these alleged 'Acts' contained, as they were naturally suppressed on Constantine's accession to power; but we may surmise that they had some affinity with Toledoth Yeshu, an anti-Christian compilation popular in some Jewish circles in mediaeval time.' > > **Later in the fourth century another forged set of 'Acts of Pilate' appeared, this time from the Christian side, and as devoid of genuineness as Maximin's, to which they were perhaps intended as a counterblast.** They are still extant, and consist of alleged memorials the trial, passion, and resurrection of Christ, recorded by Nicodemus and deposited with Pilate. (They are also own as the 'Gospel of Nicodemus'.) A translation of them is given in M. R. James' Apocryphal New Testament, pp. 94 ff., and they have a literary interest of their own, which does not concern us here. > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/608033/25 "2012-01-06T20:20:18Z")
> [@Composer](#): > > In the final analysis there is no evidence that the biblical character called “Jesus Christ” ever existed. Yes there is. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/608033/26 "2012-01-12T10:37:13Z")
Oh, I missed this: apparently [holocaust deniers](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28831756/ns/world_news-europe/t/pope-lifts-excommunications-bishops/) are less loathsome than people asking the Church to re-evaluate its position on [homosexuality, priest celibacy and patriarchy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_to_Action). I also like that on the page the person criticising Father Berrigan for being an intellectual has a PhD in sociology and wrote at least two books a year. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/608033/27 "2012-01-12T10:39:53Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > Great article. Can’t believe I had never read it before. > So… It was Colonel Mustard in the Conservatory with a lead pipe… right? Nope. It was the Romans on Golgatha with the lumber and nails. Actual COD might have been a spear to the side. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/608033/28 "2012-01-12T10:41:09Z")
> [@John\_W.Kennedy](#): > > Yes there is. There isn’t if you don’t want there to be. It’s that simple. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/608033/29 "2012-01-12T18:57:46Z")
He took an arrow to the knee. Then they took him to the quarry and threw shit on him. ---
**Author:** ![Zyanthia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Zyanthia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyanthia)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/608033/30 "2012-01-12T20:46:04Z")
Let he who is without a snowboard cast the first stone? ---
**Author:** ![SGT42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b9e5f3/32.png) [@SGT42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SGT42)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/608033/31 "2012-01-16T18:07:15Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > The funny thing is that if you did, according to the meagre theology I’ve come across (mostly third hand), God would not be able to complete the necessary blood sacrifice. That means people would still bear the sin and wouldn’t be entitled to eternal life as far as I’m aware (not sure if everyone would go to Sheol or Hades or oblivion)… So there’s a sort of paradox. Maybe there’s an argument that the individual that would kill Jesus _should_ damn themselves on Utilitarian grounds: eternal hellfire for themselves, salvation for everyone else that follows Christ afterwards. I am not an expert in theology, but it seems that the Jews made sacrifices for thanksgiving, not for atonement. The expiatory goat, used for atonement, was set free in the fields, not sacrificed. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/608033/32 "2012-01-16T19:55:32Z")
> [@SGT42](#): > > I am not an expert in theology, but it seems that the Jews made sacrifices for thanksgiving, not for atonement. Not wholly. The first that comes to mind is the Red Heifer (Numbers 19). ---
**Author:** ![sich\_hinaufwinden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@sich\_hinaufwinden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sich_hinaufwinden)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/608033/33 "2012-01-16T20:26:02Z")
> [@Hammered001](#): > > I do not believe he was conceived from immaculate conception… Nobody believes this as far as I’m aware. It doesn’t mean what you seem to think it means. Immaculate Conception is not the same thing as the Virgin Birth. It refers to Mary being conceived in the regular sexual manner but without the stain of original sin. Or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/608033/34 "2012-01-16T20:32:05Z")
> [@sich\_hinaufwinden](#): > > Nobody believes this as far as I’m aware. It doesn’t mean what you seem to think it means. Immaculate Conception is not the same thing as the Virgin Birth. It refers to Mary being conceived in the regular sexual manner but without the stain of original sin. Or something like that. That’s correct. IC concerns the circumstances of _Mary’s_ birth (or more accurately, her conception), not Jesus’. Your memory is correct. As far as who believes in IC, it’s pretty much only a Roman Catholic doctrine. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/608033/35 "2012-01-16T22:35:37Z")
> [@sich\_hinaufwinden](#): > > Nobody believes this as far as I’m aware. It doesn’t mean what you seem to think it means. Immaculate Conception is not the same thing as the Virgin Birth. It refers to Mary being conceived in the regular sexual manner but without the stain of original sin. Or something like that. Yeah, but what about Mary’s mother? I bet that skank was conceived by steaming hot monkey love. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/608033/36 "2012-01-16T22:45:36Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > He took an arrow to the knee. Then they took him to the quarry and threw shit on him. > [@Zyanthia](#): > > Let he who is without a snowboard cast the first stone? Moderator Speaketh: Look, I know that these are VERY funny comments. Both caused me to chuckle, no doubt about it. However… it makes me very uncomfortable to be bringing an extraneous topic into another thread. I’m therefore suggesting that people lay off this kind of aside. However amusing, it’s border-line insult. I’m not doing anything official here, I’m just suggesting in a friendly manner that we not blow the damn quarry thing up any more than it’s been. ---
**Author:** ![sich\_hinaufwinden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@sich\_hinaufwinden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sich_hinaufwinden)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/608033/37 "2012-01-16T23:49:15Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Yeah, but what about Mary’s mother? I bet that skank was conceived by steaming hot monkey love. Yep - just like everyone else (including Mary as noted in my post) with the sole exception being for Jesus (according to Christians). If you were trying to contribute something worthwhile to the thread, it eludes me. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/608033/38 "2012-01-17T00:01:41Z")
> [@sich\_hinaufwinden](#): > > If you were trying to contribute something worthwhile to the thread, it eludes me. Then I won’t spoil it for you. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/608033/39 "2012-01-17T00:58:48Z")
> [@Hammered001](#): > > Read Pontius Pilate’s letters to Tiberius Caesar. When a wee tad, I thought his name was Pontius _Pirate._ Yo-ho-ho! ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/608033/40 "2012-01-17T01:13:12Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > When a wee tad, I thought his name was Pontius _Pirate._ I’m seeing my next Halloween costume: toga, eye patch. “Who are are you?” “Pontius Pirate. Arrrh!” 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/608033.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/608033.md?page=3)