# Who Killed Otzi? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 27, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005 "2011-10-27T21:21:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/21 "2011-10-28T17:47:13Z")
I don’t see it mentioned in the Wikipedia link, but I recall reading some years ago that someone in our present time made off with his penis. Really. So talk about ignoring the normal rules of respect for the dead. Does anyone else recall this? If it’s true that all white people today are descended from Charlemagne, then I guess Otzi might be our great-great-ganddaddy too. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/22 "2011-10-28T18:29:09Z")
> [@bup](#): > > [Holy crap it’s true.](http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/04/0430_030430_royalmummy.html) The mummy was Ramses I, but WOW. For sheer wierdness, it’s one of my favorites. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/23 "2011-10-28T18:34:39Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > For what it’s worth, there’s at least some reason to believe Otzi wasn’t a particularly _nice_ human being. First, prehistoric humans weren’t particularly nice as a rule - violence was probably common, both between men (combat over resources/territory/women) and directed towards women. (This is based on our observations of modern hunter-gatherer societies). Further, Stephen Pinker refers to an (apparently) common theory of Otzi’s death: That he was a member of a raiding party attacking another tribe, killed a couple of people (there was blood on his weapons), and was then killed himself whilst attempting retreat. > > Otzi may well have richly deserved his end. And people often acknowledge that normal rules of respect for the dead don’t apply when the dead were seriously bad people. Ghaddifi, for example, was displayed in a store freezer for days. There are a couple of strikes against the raiding party theory. First, his body wasn’t looted and he had valuable stuff, like the copper axe. Easy to grab. Given that the arrow was pulled from his back, why didn’t his friends or enemies take the axe? Valuable, a good weapon, right at hand. Second, he was carrying a quiver mostly filled with unfinished, unfletched arrows - presumably intending to finish them at his leasure. Who carries a quiver full of unfinished arrows on a raid? Third, the autopsy on the show demonstrated conclusively he had just eaten before dying. Seems odd to have a heavy meal, then immediately be involved in a long-distance raid. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/24 "2011-10-28T19:07:46Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > … Further, Stephen Pinker refers to an (apparently) common theory of Otzi’s death: That he was a member of a raiding party attacking another tribe, killed a couple of people (there was blood on his weapons),… To be clear, since I didn’t see the show, there was human blood, and not his own, on more than one of his weapons? How many humans? How many weapons had human blood on them? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/25 "2011-10-28T19:10:24Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > … > Third, the autopsy on the show demonstrated conclusively he had just eaten before dying. Seems odd to have a heavy meal, then immediately be involved in a long-distance raid. His tribe could have been the subject of a raid, and he could have died defending the village. Was there any indication of burial, or was he left where he dropped? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/26 "2011-10-28T19:14:47Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > His tribe could have been the subject of a raid, and he could have died defending the village. Was there any indication of burial, or was he left where he dropped? Someone rolled him on his face and pulled the arrow out of his back (this before rigor mortis). Then he was left, face-down. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/27 "2011-10-28T19:35:04Z")
He was killed nearly at the top of a high mountain pass, not anywhere near a settlement. It seems pretty clear that he was not expecting an imminent attack (unfinished arrows, recently fed). The way I figure, he was on an expedition (hunting, trading, or just exploratory) with at least one other person. Either he was straight-up murdered by his companion, or they were attacked by another group, and his tribemates prevented looting of his body, but were unable or unwilling to retrieve his possessions themselves. What seemed more fascinating to me about the new evidence was his stomach contents. A very early farmed grain, and wild animal meat. Along with the stone-age/copper-age transition, makes him a gold mine, regardless of the circumstances of his death. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/28 "2011-10-28T20:03:08Z")
Involved in a gay love triangle, killed by [Serge](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/8433527/First-homosexual-caveman-found.html). ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/29 "2011-10-28T21:04:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Who Killed Otzi? Lee Harvey Oswald, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/30 "2011-10-28T21:07:20Z")
Otzi was heading with his new wife, Molly and her father Stev up the pass that separated their villages. As a hunter and sometimes trader, Otzi had made the walk a thousand times. The three had just been at Otzi and Molly’s wedding. There was a great feast, good music and Otzi was as full as he’d ever been. They were heading to Molly and Stev’s village to meet with the bride’s mother, who was too old and frail to walk. They would pay their respects and the new bride would say her final good-byes as she was to cleave to Otzi’s clan. Otzi’s father-in-law and he were talking about the vagarities of this season’s hunt and how Otzi hoped that his new wife would bear him many children, since his last had died in childbirth after miscarrying four times in a row. Otzi told Stev that he thought his old wife was now with the spirit in the forest and that she would teach songs to birds. She had, in life, had a singular talent for flutes. Stev’s face grew cold at the thought. The Spirit of the Forest was a dark thing that wolves called to and that summoned freezing rains to heap misery on hunters. If Otzi venerated the Forest Spirit, it meant he was a low and vulgar man. Stev stopped and watched his young daughter pass by, she was virginal and bore freckles and fair skin. There was no way his daughter would lay with a vulgar supplicant to the wolf lord. Without a word he loaded his bow and let an arrow slam into Otzi’s back. Otzi felt the hot sting and spun looking for attackers. Seeing his father-in-law still holding the bow, Otzi stumbled and fell in the snow, the arrow twisting to the side as his weight hit it. He was confused. What was happening? Then a flint blade flew at his neck. Otzi grabbed the knife and struggled with Stev over it. After a few moments of awkward fighting, the blade fell a couple of yards away, just out of reach. Stev pulled back and slid his fire-hardened war club from his belt. Otzi rolled over onto his knees and tried to stand. But he was middle-aged, older than Stev, really and took just a moment too long. The war-club hit the back of his head and Otzi fell to the snow, seeing stars and encroaching darkness. Then, over five thousand years later, someone ripped his peter off. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/31 "2011-10-28T21:42:41Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Second, he was carrying a quiver mostly filled with unfinished, unfletched arrows - presumably intending to finish them at his leasure. Who carries a quiver full of unfinished arrows on a raid? Stupid question: Are unfletched arrows completely useless, or just _less_ effective than fletched arrows? If the latter, that might explain why he’d carry them on a raid. Another possibility: Otzi just carried _everything_ he cared about, wherever he went. Doesn’t seem implausible that a man of his era might have been able to carry the bulk of his worldly possessions on his back. ETA: To elaborate - with no cops, no law, and no courts, there really aren’t many good non-violent ways to enforce property rights. Making damned sure you carry your stuff with you could be a good way to avoid all sorts of grief. As to no one taking the copper axe, a thought occurs: If a man’s just killed your dad/mom/wife/sibling/whatever, do you really _want_ the murder weapon for your own use after you’ve taken the bastard down? I’m not sure that I would. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/32 "2011-10-28T21:52:20Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Stupid question: Are unfletched arrows completely useless, or just _less_ effective than fletched arrows? If the latter, that might explain why he’d carry them on a raid. Another possibility: Otzi just carried _everything_ he cared about, wherever he went. Doesn’t seem implausible that a man of his era might have been able to carry the bulk of his worldly possessions on his back. > > As to no one taking the copper axe, a thought occurs: If a man’s just killed your dad/mom/wife/sibling/whatever, do you really _want_ the murder weapon for your own use after you’ve taken the bastard down? I’m not sure that I would. I’ve never shot with unfletched arrows, but I would assume they would be _substantially_ less effective than properly fletched ones. Otzi certainly had a couple of fletched arrows with him, and would assuredly have known the difference. If an unfletched arrow was very effective, people would not bother fletching, which is a _lot_ of work for something that must get lost or broken as often as an arrow. Generally, if you were going on a life-or-death military struggle, I imagine you would not skimp on your ammunition. There may of course be reasons you’d have to (raid a response to a sudden situation requiring instant action) - but overall, carrying your unfinished possessions with you is more _consistent_ with someone just going on a regular journey, than someone going on a raid, particularly where those possessions are your _ammo_. ---
**Author:** ![palacheck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a88e57/32.png) [@palacheck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/palacheck)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/33 "2011-10-28T22:42:01Z")
Perhaps he was killed by a serial killer.:eek: He eats a big meal before setting out on some sort of expedition, maybe to scout for wildlife. He’s either followed by this Stone Age thrill killer, or the killer volunteers to accompany Otzi. When they’re sufficiently far enough from camp, the killer attacks Otzi ferociously. He wants to see his victims eyes as he hurts them, as sadistic psychopaths like to do. He’s grabbing at Otzi’s throat trying to strangle him. Otzi puts up a fight but the killer is too strong and Otzi knows he can’t prevent the strangling much longer. The killer is frustrated and, in a rage, pulls out his stone knife and tries to stab Otzi. But Otzi grabs the blade and is able to break free of his grip! Otzi jumps up and begins to run in panic. Arrow to the back, club to the head, you know the rest. Then he runs back to camp with a story about Otzi being mauled by wild animals, or killed by a raiding party. I wonder how many of his own tribe he was able to kill before his thrill killing was discovered… ---
**Author:** ![Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/34 "2011-10-28T22:51:32Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > My favorite story along these lines is that one of the Egyptian pharohs (I believe it was Ramses II?) ended up hanging in a Niagra Falls tourist attraction for a century or so before being identified a few years ago, and ceremoniously returned to Egypt. > > Whatever afterlife he had planned, I’m pretty sure it did not involve being gawped at by tourists at two bits a gander: “see the horrifying mummy of terror!”. 😃 I saw a neat programme about this. Two things I remember: the reason he remained unidentified for so long was that people assumed the mummy was a fake and, although they carried out a lot more tests for conclusive proof the initial positive identification was by smell. They had a woman who has done a lot of work with mummies and she can tell the era they come from by the distinctive odour of chemicals used. Rameses II was the only missing mummy from a particular set and she knew he belonged to that set by the way he smelled. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/35 "2011-10-28T22:56:23Z")
Maybe Otzi was the serial killer! Luckily, the upstanding citizen who Otzi attacked was well armed thanks to tribal laws introduced by the NBA (National Bow Assocation). The citizen drew and fired his weapon as Otzi approached, just as Otzi turned to run, so the arrow hit him in the back. ---
**Author:** ![eclectic\_wench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac91a4/32.png) [@eclectic\_wench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eclectic_wench)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/36 "2011-10-28T23:21:42Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > As to no one taking the copper axe, a thought occurs: If a man’s just killed your dad/mom/wife/sibling/whatever, do you really _want_ the murder weapon for your own use after you’ve taken the bastard down? I’m not sure that I would. I’m not so sure. In a lot of societies, that axe would be pretty totemic - by taking it, especially by force, you’d take some of the killer’s power away. Also, I’m not too sure a subsistence society could afford to be squeamish when it came to a useful and valuable weapon. This story absolutely fascinates me. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/37 "2011-10-28T23:26:15Z")
I’ll have to amend my earlier posts slightly. It doesn’t really matter, but I got a bit suspicious and checked it out, and it turns it wasn’t actually Ötzi in my town, it was a travelling exhibition \*about \*Ötzi. The posters and everything made it totally look like he was the main attraction, and I had to dig really deep on the website about the exhibition before it told me that Ötzi can’t actually be moved out of the museum where he’s kept in the Alps. Shocking! A scam, I say! Anyway, never mind, carry on. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/38 "2011-10-29T01:53:52Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Otzi was in my town recently. Apparently he was on tour. Big posters with his face everywhere. “Come see the dead iceman!” > > It creeped my out a bit. Otzi was a person, a human being, and now he’s a tourist attraction. The reverence and respect we normally show a dead body is apparently wiped out after it spends X number of milliennia in a glacier. I get the same feeling when I see Egyptian mummies. Jeez, the guy is dead, can’t we give him some privacy? > > Is it just me? It’s NOT just you. I feel that the deceased should generally be afforded dignity and privacy. The Egyptians went through a lot of trouble to build tombs that were private. Note- I do NOT object to Body Worlds (in fact I’ve been to the exhibit and bought the DVD for my sister). The deceased at BW gave their bodies to science and education. I personally feel that several of the deceased would be greatly pleased at the effect that seeing their smoke-ravaged lungs has on people. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/39 "2011-10-30T00:39:02Z")
I think that Otzi was a no good stinking rat. He and his party were themselves in a large raiding party. Unbeknownst to the rest, Otzi had mad a deal to warn the intended victims. He deliberately cut his own hand as an excuse to abandon his hapless comrades. When the actual confrontation occurred, naturally, Otzi’s crew was slaughtered. But, one of the members of the raiding party survived, which is something that Otzi hadn’t counted on in. Otzi was strolling casually, stopping frequently to laugh in scorn at his dull fellows, and to marvel at his thirty pieces of silver, the copper axe, but, his friend had come running back, heading to the village to beg for reinforcements, and quickly came near. Seeing the Judas, and thinking of his own friends lying dead in the cold, his fellow villager couldn’t take the time to challenge Otzi for his duplicity-he fired his arrow, and it found its mark. The traitor died a traitor’s death. A cowardly death. The marksman retrieved his arrow from the corpse, but, left the scoundrel’s own axe beside his cowardly body-he wanted nothing from the fiend except the memory of his dying shriek. All would now know that Otzi, even with a copper axe, could never harm his own people again. Then, over five thousand years later, someone ripped his peter off. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/40 "2011-10-30T00:58:29Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > I think that Otzi was a no good stinking rat. > He and his party were themselves in a large raiding party. Unbeknownst to the rest, Otzi had mad a deal to warn the intended victims. He deliberately cut his own hand as an excuse to abandon his hapless comrades. When the actual confrontation occurred, naturally, Otzi’s crew was slaughtered. But, one of the members of the raiding party survived, which is something that Otzi hadn’t counted on in. Otzi was strolling casually, stopping frequently to laugh in scorn at his dull fellows, and to marvel at his thirty pieces of silver, the copper axe, but, his friend had come running back, heading to the village to beg for reinforcements, and quickly came near. Seeing the Judas, and thinking of his own friends lying dead in the cold, his fellow villager couldn’t take the time to challenge Otzi for his duplicity-he fired his arrow, and it found its mark. The traitor died a traitor’s death. A cowardly death. The marksman retrieved his arrow from the corpse, but, left the scoundrel’s own axe beside his cowardly body-he wanted nothing from the fiend except the memory of his dying shriek. All would now know that Otzi, even with a copper axe, could never harm his own people again. > > Then, over five thousand years later, someone ripped his peter off. This isn’t fair to Otzi. You have the basic facts right, but Otzi’s motivation wrong, just like his fellow villagers. He was a pawn in a larger game of tribal espionage. He was warning the other village of an attack, but only in order to lead the retaliating party into an ambush. Unfortunately, not all the villagers got the word that there was a friendly among the enemies, and Otzi died tragically as the result. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005.md?page=3)