# Who Killed Otzi? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 27, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005 "2011-10-27T21:21:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DMark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DMark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMark)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/41 "2011-10-30T02:32:56Z")
Otzi and his hunting buddies were sitting around the fire, finishing up a nice dinner. Suddenly another group of hunters attacks. Otzi is the first hit and one of his friends rolls him over to try to save him and pull out the arrow. They can’t hold off the other hunters and run for their lives. The other hunters follow those guys, leaving Otzi (the first shot) left at the scene and nobody ever returns. The End BTW, I read that he had some pretty decent shoes, and they used grass as sort of socks/insulation at the time. Interesting concept - shoe filler. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/42 "2011-10-30T02:35:18Z")
This would make for a good episode of _Monk_, in which he solves the case. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/43 "2011-10-30T22:53:35Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > Lee Harvey Oswald, of course. Don’t be absurd. There was a second bowman on a grassy knoll. Wake up sheeple!! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/44 "2011-10-30T23:08:37Z")
This was a little unusual for _NOVA_, and was more like an episode of _Secrets of the Dead_– a very similar type of show, but sort of a _NOVA_ meets _CSI_. The interesting part was it took them 10 years to notice he had an arrow in his back. ---
**Author:** ![Taomist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@Taomist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taomist)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/45 "2011-10-30T23:31:31Z")
Lobohan, I just snorted out loud and scared the cats. Thanks! :p:p ---
**Author:** ![Chanteuse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de053/32.png) [@Chanteuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chanteuse)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/46 "2011-10-30T23:36:23Z")
Harriet. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2011, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/47 "2011-10-31T03:09:36Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > Don’t be absurd. > > There was a second bowman on a grassy knoll. > Wake up sheeple!! No, no, the second bowman was a gassy troll. There have been problems with the translation of the account. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/48 "2011-11-10T13:23:33Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > No, no, the second bowman was a gassy troll. There have been problems with the translation of the account. Wrong again. There have been problems with the translation because of the accent. hh ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/49 "2011-11-10T22:54:09Z")
> [@OtisCampbellWasRight](#): > > There was another very similiar show about a guy they found in an old bog in Europe (I think.) Anyone remember if that too was a PBS/Nova show? I think that might have been NOVA on Tollund Man: > **[Tollund Man — NOVA | PBS](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/tolland-man.html)** > > This 2,400-year-old corpse is the world's most famous bog body. Learn how scientists reconstructed his final hours. (Apparently they can’t spell their link right. 😃 ) > [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Further, Stephen Pinker refers to an (apparently) common theory of Otzi’s death: That he was a member of a raiding party attacking another tribe, killed a couple of people (there was blood on his weapons), and was then killed himself whilst attempting retreat. There was no mention of the blood on his weapons on the NOVA show. Not saying it isn’t true, but wasn’t mentioned in that show. Got a cite? Pinker may claim he was a member of a raiding party, but the NOVA show was talking to the people in charge of the museum display, and they didn’t think it was conclusive at all, and actually spun the theory of murder for personal motives based upon the copper axe being left and the arrow being removed - no identifiers to connect the killer to the body. > [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > His tribe could have been the subject of a raid, and he could have died defending the village. Was there any indication of burial, or was he left where he dropped? No, he lay where he fell, except perhaps rolled over. He was draped across a boulder, not flat on the ground. His right arm is at a strange angle across his chest/neck, suggesting he was rolled over. The body was found way way way up on an icy alpine mountain ridge, nowhere near an encampment or settlement. Pollen in his body shows signs he had been up and down the mountain a couple times. He had within the last hour or so eaten a decent-sized meal. He was in possession of a copper axe, but his body was dated to before Europeans were thought to be able to smelt copper. (This is a huge find just for that detail - it adjusts the record of when copper was replacing stone.) The rarity of worked copper makes that axe immensly valuable to that culture. Someone removed the arrow shaft - the head got lodged in his chest. They had the opportunity to take valuables, including the axe. So there needs to be a plausible explanation for that. The murder explanation seems more plausible to me than an attack on a group that migrated and so no one rummaged the body. > [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > As to no one taking the copper axe, a thought occurs: If a man’s just killed your dad/mom/wife/sibling/whatever, do you really _want_ the murder weapon for your own use after you’ve taken the bastard down? I’m not sure that I would. Again, the blood thing I haven’t seen evidence for. But even if the axe had just been used to cleave my father’s head, I would think it would be a fitting trophy that I had avenged my father, especially given how valuable it had to be. > [@DMark](#): > > BTW, I read that he had some pretty decent shoes, and they used grass as sort of socks/insulation at the time. Interesting concept - shoe filler. His shoes were interesting. They appeared to be a lattice of rope holding a skin of some kind, stuffed with leaves and plant matter. Quite apart from the murder, I find it fascinating just the description of why his body survived for so long. At that altitude, the cold and dry air mummified the body fairly quickly. Then snowfall covered the body. If it had been anywhere else, the movement of the snow and ice would have ground the body to bits as it migrated down the mountain. But the specific place he died was in a small boulder-filled gulley. The gulley made just enough of a depression that the ice that filled in the low spot was anchored by the obstructing rocks, so it did not slide down as the snow and ice above it slid over the top. The weight crushed his mummified body to a distorted flattened shape, which also shifted his internal organs oddly. Eventually the body became exposed, and was discovered by two mountain hikers who got off their trail. ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/50 "2011-11-10T23:14:12Z")
> [@OtisCampbellWasRight](#): > > Really was quite a good show, wasn’t it? Great detective work - kinda puts the CSI bunch to shame. > > There was another very similiar show about a guy they found in an old bog in Europe (I think.) Anyone remember if that too was a PBS/Nova show? I know the conversation has moved on, but I just wanted to add that they lab guys named him Pete Marsh. Who says scientists have no sense of humour. ---
**Author:** ![Mewl\_Dear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Mewl\_Dear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mewl_Dear)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/51 "2011-11-10T23:51:45Z")
My theory. The guy shot him ran up bashed his head grabbed his arrow (which is a much more efficient weapon then the axe) and fought on. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/52 "2011-11-11T01:27:54Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > It creeped my out a bit. Otzi was a person, a human being, and now he’s a tourist attraction. The reverence and respect we normally show a dead body is apparently wiped out after it spends X number of milliennia in a glacier. I get the same feeling when I see Egyptian mummies. Jeez, the guy is dead, can’t we give him some privacy? > > Is it just me? Go to Middlebury, Vermont. Visit the local cemetery. You will find a gravestone with the following inscription: Ashes of Amum-Her-Khepesh-Ef Aged Two Years Son of Sen Woset 3rd King of Egypt and his wife Hathor-Hotpe 1883 BC Yes, there is an Egyptian mummy that is buried in a small town in Vermont. A local museum bought the mummy back in 1886. But when it was delivered they found it wasn’t in good enough condition to display. So it was put into storage in the museum’s attic. Another curator, George Mead, came across the mummy in 1945. He said, _“This was once a human being. It is fitting and proper that it should have a Christian burial.”_ So he had the remains of Amum-Her-Khepesh-Ef cremated and buried in the Mead family plot. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/53 "2011-11-11T03:08:40Z")
[Brad Pitt’s tattoo of Otzi.](http://qmackie.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/brad-pitt-very-venice-01.jpg) Kinda cool, almost makes me want one. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/54 "2011-11-11T03:29:34Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Go to Middlebury, Vermont. Visit the local cemetery. You will find a gravestone with the following inscription: > > Ashes of Amum-Her-Khepesh-Ef > Aged Two Years > Son of Sen Woset 3rd > King of Egypt and his wife > Hathor-Hotpe > 1883 BC > > Yes, there is an Egyptian mummy that is buried in a small town in Vermont. A local museum bought the mummy back in 1886. But when it was delivered they found it wasn’t in good enough condition to display. So it was put into storage in the museum’s attic. > > Another curator, George Mead, came across the mummy in 1945. He said, _“This was once a human being. It is fitting and proper that it should have a Christian burial.”_ So he had the remains of Amum-Her-Khepesh-Ef cremated and buried in the Mead family plot. I have sen the amazingly well-preserved bodies of Swedish soldiers from the 30 Years’ War in the basement of a cathedral in Bremen, Germany. IIRC, the lead lining played a role in the preservation. Some of them looked none too happy about being killed. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/55 "2011-11-11T14:36:30Z")
> [@Mewl\_Dear](#): > > My theory. The guy shot him ran up bashed his head grabbed his arrow (which is a much more efficient weapon then the axe) and fought on. Problem with that theory is that the arrow left its head behind inside Otzi, so was useless as a weapon. The natural thing to do would have been to toss it away when the killer saw it was broken, not take it. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/56 "2011-11-11T14:38:54Z")
> [@PlainJain](#): > > [Brad Pitt’s tattoo of Otzi.](http://qmackie.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/brad-pitt-very-venice-01.jpg) > > Kinda cool, almost makes me want one. That’s cool. I wonder what the poor copper age fellow would have thought if he’d known that, 5,000 years in the future, a picture of his withered corpse would be the decoration on a pop-cultural icon. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/57 "2011-11-11T14:41:32Z")
Whoever killed Otzi was afraid of him - I think Otzi was a shaman, thus the copper axe and all the tattoos. So they left his stuff on him - it had bad juju, or Otzi’s spirit would pursue the killer if he had his stuff, or something. ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/58 "2011-11-11T15:00:54Z")
I heard or read the other day that latest speculation is that the arrow wound was old and he died after falling down while trying to climb up the mountain. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/59 "2011-11-11T16:35:41Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Problem with that theory is that the arrow left its head behind inside Otzi, so was useless as a weapon. The natural thing to do would have been to toss it away when the killer saw it was broken, not take it. Maybe he did and it floated away the next spring thaw. It is a pity they went digging for the damned arrow head instead of trying to figure out if it was an old healed wound or not. Though I like the killed by someone in the tribe, so they had to leave the ax behind because there would be _questions_… Hey, didn’t you go hiking with Otzi and come back to tell us he decided to stay over there with that other tribe? Then why do you have his stuff…:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005/60 "2011-11-11T17:17:44Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Maybe he did and it floated away the next spring thaw. > > It is a pity they went digging for the damned arrow head instead of trying to figure out if it was an old healed wound or not. > > Though I like the killed by someone in the tribe, so they had to leave the ax behind because there would be _questions_… > > Hey, didn’t you go hiking with Otzi and come back to tell us he decided to stay over there with that other tribe? Then why do you have his stuff…:dubious: I have heard it alleged that a wound in that location would be very quickly fatal. > **[Iceman bled to death, scientists say](https://www.theguardian.com/science/2007/jun/07/archaeology.internationalnews)** > > Archaeologists think they have solved the longstanding mystery of how Otzi, the world's most famous iceman, met his end: an arrow wound to his shoulder caused him to bleed to death. > [@](#): > > Dr Ruehli found that an arrow had torn a hole in an artery beneath Otzi’s left collarbone, leading to massive loss of blood and shock and causing him to suffer a heart attack. His analysis is published online in the Journal of Archaeological Science. > > According to the analysis, the chances of surviving such an attack even today would be around 40%. Dr Ruehli said the arrow being pulled out before death might have contributed to the injury. A large haematoma, a collection of blood due to internal bleeding, could also be seen in the surrounding tissue, and the iceman probably died shortly after the lesion was caused, researchers concluded. If this is true, I think we can discount the notion it was an old healed wound … [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-otzi/601005.md?page=4)