# Who Killed The Electric Car?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [November 1, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964 "2009-11-01T18:38:12Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2009, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/61 "2009-11-04T01:22:03Z")
> [@jakesteele](#):
>
> For whatever it’s worth. It doesn’t appear that the article was disputed.
> [Who Killed the Electric Car? - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_The_Electric_Car%3F#The_suspects)
>
> **The suspects**
>
> The later portion of the film is organized around the following hypothesized culprits in the downfall of the electric car, with verdict of each suspect given at the end of the film:
>
> **Consumers**
> Lots of ambivalence to new technology, unwillingness to compromise on decreased range and increased cost for improvements to air quality and reduction of dependence on foreign oil. Although these allegations are made about consumers by industry reps in the film, perhaps explaining the film’s “guilty” verdict, the actual consumers interviewed in the film were either unaware an electric car was available, or dismayed that they could no longer obtain one.
>
> **Verdict: Guilty**
> **Batteries**
> Limited range _(60 - 70 miles) and reliability in the first EV1s to ship, but better (110 - 160 miles) later_. Research says the average driving distance of Americans in a day is 30 miles or less and that 90% of Americans could use electric cars in their daily commute.\* The film also showed that the company who had supplied batteries for EV1 had been suppressed from announcing the improved batteries that can double the range of EV1, and General Motors had sold the supplier’s majority control share to an oil company.\* Towards the end of the film, an engineer explains that, as of the interview, _lithium ion batteries, the same technology available in laptops, would have allowed the EV1 to be upgraded to a range of 300 miles per charge._
>
> **Verdict: Not Guilty**
> **Oil companies**
> Fearful of losing business to a competing technology, they supported efforts to kill the ZEV mandate. They also bought patents to prevent modern NiMH batteries from being used in US electric cars. The film also used the crash of oil prices in 1980s as an example of foreign governments and oil companies trying to keep customers from moving towards independence from oil.
>
> **Verdict: Guilty**
> **Car companies**
> The film submits that GM engaged in negative marketing of the EV1, including customer surveys which emphasized drawbacks to electronic vehicle technology which were not present in the EV1. CARB officials were quoted claiming that they removed their zero emission vehicle quotas in part because they gave weight to such surveys purportedly showing no demand existing for the EV1s. Other charges included, sabotaging their own product program, failure to produce cars to meet existing demand, unusual business practices with regards to leasing versus sales. The film showed an explanation that electric cars needed fewer expensive repairs, so the car dealers would not make as much money over the long term as gasoline-powered cars.
>
> ```
> The film also describes the history of automaker efforts to destroy competing technologies, such as their destruction through front companies of public transit systems in the United States in the early 20th century. In addition of EV1, the film also showed Toyota RAV4 EV, Honda EV Plus were being cancelled by their respective car companies, with the crushing of Honda EV Plus gained attention only after a PBS interview. On the other hand, the film claimed Japanese government supported the production of Toyota Prius as a response to the American EV1 program.
>
> The filmmakers suggested that GM did not immediately channel its technological progress with the EV1 into other projects following its cancellation, instead letting the technology languish while focusing on more immediately profitable enterprises such as traditional SUVs. In one interview, the film mentioned that only by government legislation, automakers began to introduce important safety and emissions innovations including seat belts, airbags and catalytic converters.
>
> Though GM cited cost as a deterrent to continuing with the EV1, the film interviewed critics contending that the cost of batteries and electric vehicles would have been reduced significantly if mass production began, due to economies of scale.
>
> ```
>
> **Verdict: Guilty**
> **Government**
> The federal government joined in the auto industry suit against California, has failed to act in the public interest to limit pollution and require increased fuel economy, has promoted the purchase of vehicles with poor fuel efficiency through preferential tax breaks, and has redirected alternative fuel research from electric towards hydrogen.
>
> **Verdict: Guilty**
> **California Air Resources Board**
> The CARB, headed by Alan Lloyd, caved to industry pressure and repealed the ZEV mandate. Lloyd was given the directorship of the new fuel cell institute, creating an inherent conflict of interest. Footage shot in the meetings showed how he shut down the ZEV proponents while giving the car makers all the time they wanted to make their points.
>
> \*\*Verdict: Guilty
> \*\*
> **Hydrogen fuel cell**
> The hydrogen fuel cell was presented by the film as an alternative that distracts attention from the real and immediate potential of electric vehicles to an unlikely future possibility embraced by automakers, oil companies and a pro-business administration in order to buy time and profits for the status quo. The film backs up the claim that hydrogen vehicles are a mere distraction by stating that “A fuel cell car powered by hydrogen made with electricity uses 3 to 4 times more energy than a car powered by batteries” and by interviewing the author of The Hype About Hydrogen, who lists 5 problems he sees with hydrogen vehicles (these are his paraphrased claims, along with exact quotations):
>
> ```
> 1. Current fuel cell cars cost an average of $1,000,000. This cost, in his words, "has gotta drop."
> 2. Current materials cannot store enough hydrogen in a reasonable space to "give you the range people want."
> 3. Hydrogen fuel is "wildly expensive." In his words "even hydrogen from dirty fossil fuels is two or three times more expensive than gasoline."
> 4. The need for an entire new fueling infrastructure. He claims "someone's gonna have to build at least ten or twenty thousand hydrogen fueling stations, before anybody is going to be interested."
> 5. Competing technologies will improve over time as well. "You have to hope and pray that the competitors in the marketplace don't get any better. Because right now the best car in the marketplace just got a lot better, the hybrid vehicle..."
>
> ```
>
> **Verdict: Guilty**
It’s not worth anything. That is a factual analysis of the movie, not an analysis of the claims they presented.
---
### Author:  [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2009, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/62 "2009-11-04T02:24:05Z")
As opposed to your hypotheticals? Provide cites for your claims.
---
### Author:  [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2009, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/63 "2009-11-04T02:31:33Z")
What claims have I made that necessitate citations?
---
### Author:  [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2009, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/64 "2009-11-04T02:36:25Z")
You’ve claimed that electric cars cannot serve as a replacement for a significant number of motorists, that they require 8 hours of charge time (and will in the future), that they have a very short range, and that they have poor performance and are incredibly expensive.
In short, you’ve claimed they are not feasible.
However, none of those claims are true.
---
### Author:  [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2009, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/65 "2009-11-04T02:39:43Z")
My brother is an electric car owner. He leased an EV-1 and owns a Ford pickup electric. It is difficult if not impossible to get new batteries for the Ford. It runs fine. The EV-1 was amazing and I got to drive it. It had a range of about 130 miles maximum. There were no problems at all with it of any sort before GM yanked it back and destroyed it. My brother views WKTEC as an accurate documentary. I have not yet viewed it. Don’t tell him that.
---
### Author:  [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2009, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/66 "2009-11-04T03:11:37Z")
The range criticism is wrong. Over 80 percent of drivers drive less than 40 miles per day. If you have to drive over 100 a day, the electric will not suit your needs. That does not mean the electrics don’t fill a huge need. Most families have 2 cars. i would not take the electric one across the country.
---
### Author:  [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2009, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/67 "2009-11-04T03:31:45Z")
> [@ivn1188](#):
>
> You’ve claimed that electric cars cannot serve as a replacement for a significant number of motorists, that they require 8 hours of charge time (and will in the future), that they have a very short range, and that they have poor performance and are incredibly expensive.
>
> In short, you’ve claimed they are not feasible.
>
> However, none of those claims are true.
Let’s address these one at a time, then.
> [@](#):
>
> You’ve claimed that electric cars cannot serve as a replacement for a significant number of motorists…
I suppose that depends upon your definition of “significance”. [There are around 250 million cars in the United States](http://www.usa.org/cars/index.html). If we take the proposed California law (mandating 10%) and apply it to electric cars, we come to approximately 25 million electric cars that need to directly replace ICE cars. That’s a bit pie-in-the-sky, so let’s stick to California. California has [33.2 million registered vehicles](http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/facts_for_features_special_editions/012439.html), requiring around 3 million electric vehicles to cover the proposed mandate.
At current production rates, Toyota (the world’s #1 automaker) [made 8,547,000 vehicles of all types](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota#Production_and_sales_numbers) last year globally, including the much beloved and admired Prius.
Think about that for a minute. While you do, note that Tesla Motors has delivered [700](http://www.teslamotors.com/media/press_room.php?id=1867) cars total as of September.
With that, we’ll address a later claim:
> [@](#):
>
> …that they have poor performance and are incredibly expensive.
A Tesla Roadster costs [$101,500](http://www.teslamotors.com/buy/buyshowroom.php). The median household income in the United States is [$50,303](http://www.davemanuel.com/2009/09/10/median-household-income-in-the-united-states-falling-off-a-cliff/). That is the very definition of expensive.
As far as range goes, Tesla claims [a 244-mile range](http://www.teslamotors.com/), with one test reporting [313 miles on one charge](http://www.teslamotors.com/media/press_room.php?id=2022) driving in Australia. I’ll accept both claims at face value, but note that they say nothing of terrain or rate of speed. Load changes will have a detrimental effect on battery life, just as turning up the volume on your iPod drains the battery faster. These have to be factored in in order to establish a real driving range, which will certainly be less than numbers derived under ideal conditions.
As for charging, let’s see what [_Car & Driver_ has to say about that](http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/09q2/2009_tesla_roadster-road_test/fully_charged_and_ready_to_roll_by_morning_page_2):
> [@](#):
>
> Prepare to pay thousands to a contractor to rewire for Tesla’s wall-mounted, VCR-size quick charger—it pulls a staggering 70 amps at 240 volts, about enough zap to run a laundromat. We chose the Homer Simpson route, spending $19.22 at the local hardware megabox for a 40-amp, two-pole circuit breaker, a few feet of heavy wire, and a common kitchen-range plug. Hammers, drills, and electrical tape were involved, though city building inspectors were notably absent. After an hour, vidi ˇcuda! (it means voilà! in Nikola Tesla’s native Serbian), we had a Tesla home-charging station.
>
> It wouldn’t revive an exhausted Tesla in three to four hours, but it did easily recharge the car overnight using the optional $1500 “portable” cord. The cord is about 20 feet long, as thick as a garden hose and fairly heavy, though it does indeed coil into the five-cubic-foot, carbon-fiber bucket that serves as a trunk.
The hidden costs bite with a vengeance, don’t they? And as was previously said, if you need the car right now for an emergency and it has no charge, you’re SOL.
All of this makes an electric car (and the 2-seat Tesla Roadster in particular) impractical for one-car households.
> [@](#):
>
> …they require 8 hours of charge time
I did claim this. Amazingly, it’s a claim that stands up.
> [@](#):
>
> (and will in the future)
I did not claim this. However, I’ll believe it when I see it. Right now I am not seeing it.
> [@](#):
>
> In short, you’ve claimed they are not feasible.
I did not say this. I said that they are “not ready for prime time”, “…due to range and recharge limitations they would not under any circumstances be practical for a one-car household”, and “People do claim that they are to be a replacement. That is their raison d’être, a competing technology intended to replace a significant number of petroleum-fueled cars.”
Ironically, you took issue with this last statement before by saying “But, in all honesty, Electric cars are not the replacement for petroleum fueled cars,”, and then you proceed to castigate me with “You’ve claimed that electric cars cannot serve as a replacement for a significant number of motorists”. Those are your words.
I also said “I certainly have no issues with EVs. I think it’s fantastic technology. But recognizing their limitations for what they are is not, as you seem to think, dismissal of the whole concept.”
That last statement of mine has apparently not yet sunk in.
> [@](#):
>
> However, none of those claims are true.
I have not said a single thing that is untrue. Not one.
---
### Author:  [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2009, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/68 "2009-11-04T05:53:26Z")
You are cherry picking your claims to support your views. First, no one is going to bring their electric car home at the verge of running out of juice. Your 8 hours claim depends upon a completely uncharged battery.
Secondly, the cost issue. Well, how about Tesla’s $50k luxury sedan? Or what about the REVA, that costs about $13k. The Li-ion version can be charged to in just over an hour with three-phase power. The EV-1 itself was not terribly expensive. The Tesla is a sports car with performance on par with a Lamborghini. It’s not even close to being meant as a family car.
Third, your claims about how many cars can be built are ridiculous and misleading. You seem to have this idea that we will replace 10% of cars overnight. That’s simply silly. According to wiki, 60%+ of cars in the US are older than seven years.
And finally, there are plenty of circumstances where a one car family could get along with an electric vehicle. There are plenty of zero-car families out there – are these people stuck at home, unable to feed themselves? You are basing everyone’s driving habits on your own.
If you are saying “Electric cars have different drawbacks than normal cars”, well, that is pretty obvious. If you are saying that electric cars cannot replace every ICE car, that’s also pretty obvious. That is the point you might have been making, which is why I said it’s not a replacement for internal combustion.
If you are saying there is no market for any electric cars because the drawbacks are so significant, you’re wrong. Some people would be fine with, or do better with, an electric vehicle like the EV-1 or another similarly situated vehicle. Apparently, a lot of people who had EV-1s liked them, and many of those people _were_ one car families. You also can’t seriously claim price is going to be an issue forever. The cost of batteries will eventually be offset by the simplicity of building electric motors compared to building a conventional engine. Are you counting replacing head gaskets or exhaust systems or getting emissions tests or oil changes or the higher cost of fuel as part of the hidden costs on the ICE side?
We can certainly build EVs with current technology that are as economical as conventional cars. The problem is not technology, it’s manufacturing and market and people scoffing at the idea because they can’t hop in the car and drive cross country, when most people drive less than 40 miles per day.
---
### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2009, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/69 "2009-11-04T06:11:04Z")
> [@gonzomax](#):
>
> The range criticism is wrong. Over 80 percent of drivers drive less than 40 miles per day. If you have to drive over 100 a day, the electric will not suit your needs.
No, if you have to drive it over 100 _once in a year_, “the electric will not suit your needs.”
Yes, my commute is short, but I do a long drive once or twice a month.
---
### Author:  [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2009, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/70 "2009-11-04T06:22:32Z")
OK, since you are determined to handwave it all away, I will post once more what I have said twice already and wash my hands of this nonsense:
I certainly have no issues with EVs. I think it’s fantastic technology. But recognizing their limitations for what they are is not, as you seem to think, dismissal of the whole concept.
---
### Author:  [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2009, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/71 "2009-11-04T07:03:47Z")
Once a year can be fixed with a rental on long drives. I do that now with my gas cars because of the wear and tear. If I’m going to drive 1000 plus miles, I just get a major company car rental. That way if there is a breakdown, they come and get it and give you another car. (A smaller one, but that’s what they do.)
---
### Author:  [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2009, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/72 "2009-11-04T07:39:41Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#):
>
> As far as range goes, Tesla claims [a 244-mile range](http://www.teslamotors.com/), with one test reporting [313 miles on one charge](http://www.teslamotors.com/media/press_room.php?id=2022) driving in Australia. I’ll accept both claims at face value, but note that they say **nothing of terrain or rate of speed** …
313 miles was at 55mph on long straight flat roads.
The previous record, also Tesla, of 241 was on the following and driven at fairly normal speeds:
“The rally course runs 390km (241 miles) from the town of Valance in France to the Principality of Monaco and covers a mixture of trunk roads, motorways and single-carriageway roads that wind through the mountains.”
Clearly the Tesla is too expensive for most people, but that’s a great range and only 3.5 hour re-charge, if price comes down that’s pretty darn good.
---
### Author:  [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2009, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/73 "2009-11-04T12:18:41Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#):
>
> 313 miles was at 55mph on long straight flat roads.
>
> The previous record, also Tesla, of 241 was on the following and driven at fairly normal speeds:
>
> “The rally course runs 390km (241 miles) from the town of Valance in France to the Principality of Monaco and covers a mixture of trunk roads, motorways and single-carriageway roads that wind through the mountains.”
> Clearly the Tesla is too expensive for most people, but that’s a great range and only 3.5 hour re-charge, if price comes down that’s pretty darn good.
Great. But my current gas car has a 500 mile range and a 4 minute “recharge” time. Assuming the Tesla was the same price as a gasoline car, it still loses. Consumers don’t want something that is good enough when they have a better alternative.
---
### Author:  [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2009, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/74 "2009-11-04T13:37:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> No, if you have to drive it over 100 _once in a year_, “the electric will not suit your needs.”
>
> Yes, my commute is short, but I do a long drive once or twice a month.
Same here, and I don’t even _have_ a car.
---
### Author:  [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2009, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/75 "2009-11-04T13:52:30Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#):
>
> Once a year can be fixed with a rental on long drives. I do that now with my gas cars because of the wear and tear. If I’m going to drive 1000 plus miles, I just get a major company car rental. That way if there is a breakdown, they come and get it and give you another car. (A smaller one, but that’s what they do.)
I do 100 miles one way every month or two. Rental is way, way to inconvienient as far as I’m concerned.
I wonder what running the heat or air conditioning does to those mileage figures?
---
### Author:  [@Ennui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ennui)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2009, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/76 "2009-11-04T14:50:06Z")
> [@enipla](#):
>
> I wonder what running the heat or air conditioning does to those mileage figures?
Precisely, what would running a heater do to an EV’s range? If you live in the north you might like to run a heater 4+ months out of the year. An IC engine produces heat as a by-product, in the winter I start my car five minutes before I leave for work just so the interior of my car is above freezing for my commute. Perhaps EVs could be marketed with optional wool mittens for more seasonal climates.
---
### Author:  [@jakesteele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakesteele)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2009, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/77 "2009-11-04T15:06:37Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#):
>
> It’s not worth anything. That is a factual analysis of the movie, not an analysis of the claims they presented.
Oh, never mind.:o
---
### Author:  [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/78 "2009-11-04T15:28:05Z")
> [@jtgain](#):
>
> Great. But my current gas car has a 500 mile range and a 4 minute “recharge” time. Assuming the Tesla was the same price as a gasoline car, it still loses. Consumers don’t want something that is good enough when they have a better alternative.
This is exactly what I am talking about when I say people apply their own desires to the rest of the market. I think I’d be fine with taking the train on the semi-monthly occasions I need to travel, _when I am paying the equivalent of 60 cents a gallon for fuel_. If you’re going to make comparisons, you need to include all the benefits as well, like the lower maintenance requirements.
---
### Author:  [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2009, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/80 "2009-11-04T15:54:36Z")
> [@jtgain](#):
>
> Great. But my current gas car has a 500 mile range and a 4 minute “recharge” time. Assuming the Tesla was the same price as a gasoline car, it still loses. Consumers don’t want something that is good enough when they have a better alternative.
It beats my car’s range.
You are correct that there has to be an advantage, but you are limiting the discussion to 2 variables of many. As **ivn1188** points out, you need to compare fuel costs (not sure how much the re-charge costs, would be interested in knowing that) and maintenance costs. Also, I assume the electric car could tow a boat pretty easily with all of that torque, so now maybe their market is big gas guzzling pickups and suv’s (not really sure, just throwing that out).
---
### Author:  [@Dog80](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dog80)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2009, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/81 "2009-11-04T16:21:39Z")
> [@Ennui](#):
>
> Precisely, what would running a heater do to an EV’s range? If you live in the north you might like to run a heater 4+ months out of the year. An IC engine produces heat as a by-product, in the winter I start my car five minutes before I leave for work just so the interior of my car is above freezing for my commute. Perhaps EVs could be marketed with optional wool mittens for more seasonal climates.
A car cruising at 70mph requires roughly 25kw of power [according to this.](http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~allan/fluids/page8/power/power.html)
An electric space heater for a car probably requires 2-3 kw. So using the heater will increase average electric consumption by 10%. Not a small amount but not enough to significantly reduce the car’s range.
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