# Who Killed The Electric Car?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [November 1, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964 "2009-11-01T18:38:12Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 6
### Author:  [@Keweenaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keweenaw)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2009, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/102 "2009-11-05T15:37:07Z")
> [@enipla](#):
>
> With GPS and trip planners common and a little input from the driver, the serial hybrid could best calculate (based on speed, time at destination, and other factors) if the ICE should start charging or not.
The Chevy Volt plans to do exactly that.
> **[GM's Lutz: Chevy Volt Will Use GPS To Determine Distance From Home, Adjust...](https://www.jalopnik.com/5050833/gms-lutz-chevy-volt-will-use-gps-to-determine-distance-from-home-adjust-engine-accordingly/)**
>
> At GM's "blogger town hall" at the end of yesterday's Chevy Volt unveil, the General's Vice Chairman and product czar, "Maximum" Bob Lutz, made mention to a Volt feature we hadn't yet heard about, and is even more techie-cool than the iPod-like...
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### Author:  [@pan1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pan1)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/103 "2009-11-05T15:57:13Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#):
>
> … if electric cars were sold at low prices (and theoretically they _are_ simpler and cheaper to produce), then they’d have their market. But they’re not. Why?
The car companies have to make back the money they’ve spent on R&D and retooling their factories for the completely different drive trains of the electric vehicles. .
Tesla is not trying to be affordable. They are trying to enter the market as a Luxury level vehicle maker.
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### Author:  [@zenith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zenith)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/104 "2009-11-05T16:07:05Z")
Charles Franklin Kettering, inventor of the electric starter, severely wounded the electric car in 1911. It didn’t completely die until the mid-20s.
The old-time electrics were pitched to women, most of whom lacked the strength to crank an internal combustion engine. Once the electric starter trickled down from Cadillac to the Model T, the electric’s fate was sealed.
People want a car that they can use for more than 40 miles before it has to be shut down for 4-8 hours. If a universal 100+ mile quick-change power module could be agreed upon by all manufacturers and enough module exchange stations set up throughout the nation, electrics might have more than a niche status.
In that I commute 28 miles round trip, something like the upcoming 40-mile per charge Chevy Volt might interest me if it was cheap enough. I could recharge every other day, putting enough use on the backup gasoline engine to keep it lubed and the gas fresh.
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### Author:  [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/105 "2009-11-05T17:47:47Z")
> [@pan1](#):
>
> The car companies have to make back the money they’ve spent on R&D and retooling their factories for the completely different drive trains of the electric vehicles.
Well, that’s their problem. They’re also trying to make electric cars just as big, just as feature-rich, etc.
Golf carts are electric, bicycles are electric, many mopeds are electric. They’re not electric because it’s good for the environment, they’re electric because it makes economic sense.
So why instead of suddenly jumping ahead of ourselves to SUVs, we aim for the logical progression and make ultracompact cars electric. Something like the Smart that costs even less. That’ll be your 2nd family car. It won’t have any transmission , engine, or oil making it even cheaper to maintain.
It makes sense to start in that direction. You start with these cars, you start having charge ports for them, battery manufacturers start competing to make batteries for them, car manufacturers get in on it and accept lower margins given the lower risk, and slowly you make these electrics bigger and faster. But of course, that’s not what the treehuggers want. It’s not sexy to them. They want the _car_, the regular car, the car you see in movies, the car that America owns to become electric. And they want it now. Screw logical progression.
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### Author:  [@pan1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pan1)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2009, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/106 "2009-11-05T17:54:52Z")
Street Legal golf carts have been around for years.
I thought we were talking about mass marketable products here.
Of course the mass market makes no sense to people like us, on the fringe of the intellectual bell curve. A person can be sensible, people generally are not.
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### Author:  [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/107 "2009-11-05T19:48:24Z")
> [@zenith](#):
>
> People want a car that they can use for more than 40 miles before it has to be shut down for 4-8 hours. If a universal 100+ mile quick-change power module could be agreed upon by all manufacturers and enough module exchange stations set up throughout the nation, electrics might have more than a niche status.
Ok, seriously, it’s been posted in this thread multiple times that even the EV-1, which was an affordable electric car, had a range of about 100 miles. The Tesla Roadster has a range of at least double of the EV-1.
Please stop touting this 40 mile range limit. You’re off by more than a factor of 2. It’s disinformation, and your point has been brought up by several previous posters, and has been answered by other posters.
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### Author:  [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2009, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/108 "2009-11-05T23:55:20Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#):
>
> A what?
A Doctor Manhattan Project. A riff on “Manhattan Project”, obviously. In “Watchmen”, one of the Doc’s abilities is to synthesise any element he likes, in this case lithium, which makes electric road vehicles dominant in the Watchmanverse. This comes as bad news to poor Hollis Mason, the first Nite Owl, who has not only become instantly redundant as a costumed adventurer owing to the emergence of a genuine superbeing, but whose retirement plan revolved around fixing up IC-engined automobiles - a career path which has also gone the way of the dodo thanks to the same well-meaning superbeing.
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### Author:  [@zenith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zenith)
#### Post date: [November 6, 2009, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/109 "2009-11-06T15:03:32Z")
> [@Ennui](#):
>
> Precisely, what would running a heater do to an EV’s range? If you live in the north you might like to run a heater 4+ months out of the year. An IC engine produces heat as a by-product, in the winter I start my car five minutes before I leave for work just so the interior of my car is above freezing for my commute. Perhaps EVs could be marketed with optional wool mittens for more seasonal climates.
You need to consider,too, that much winter driving is done running lights and wipers. Also, “global warming”, “climate change”, whatever, is resulting in many areas getting more freezing rain and less snow. You may need only a couple kw to keep your hands and feet warm, but thawing 1/4" of ice off a car takes considerably more–not a problem for an electric parked @ home on a charger, but what of the one dumped on in the midst of a large parking lot?
Those rosy range estimates for both hybrid and pure electric are based on using so-called low-friction tires. Winter driving requires tires with good traction ; i.e. more friction.
Last, batteries perform less efficiently @ low temps.
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### Author:  [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)
#### Post date: [November 6, 2009, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/110 "2009-11-06T15:34:28Z")
> [@zenith](#):
>
> Those rosy range estimates…
You mean the “estimate” where they actually drove 313 miles? That “estimate”?
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### Author:  [@zenith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zenith)
#### Post date: [November 6, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/111 "2009-11-06T16:46:18Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#):
>
> You mean the “estimate” where they actually drove 313 miles? That “estimate”?
That one wasn’t an estimate, it was a carefully-contrived test under ideal conditions that nobody living in an area with real winter could duplicate. Also, the vehicle was a sports car, not a family-sized car.
Another aspect of all this is that the money men who want us all to" go green",e.g. Warren Buffett and GE’s Jeffrey Immelt, don’t want the batteries for these things to be made in the U.S., Canada, or the E.U. where there are environmental standards, they want them made in filthy Red China and India. Buffett owns a large stake in a Chinese battery company, and GE has been outsourcing to the 3rd world for decades.
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### Author:  [@Keweenaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keweenaw)
#### Post date: [November 6, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/112 "2009-11-06T17:53:48Z")
> [@zenith](#):
>
> Another aspect of all this is that the money men who want us all to" go green",e.g. Warren Buffett and GE’s Jeffrey Immelt, don’t want the batteries for these things to be made in the U.S., Canada, or the E.U. where there are environmental standards, they want them made in filthy Red China and India. Buffett owns a large stake in a Chinese battery company, and GE has been outsourcing to the 3rd world for decades.
I don’t know about what Warren Buffett wants, but the Chevy Volt Batteries will be made in Michigan.
> **[Holland wins LG lithium-ion battery plant](https://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/2009/10/holland_wins_lg_lithium-ion_ba.html)**
>
> LG, through its subsidiary Compact Power Inc., won a $151.4 million grant in August, and had been considering sites in Holland, Pontiac and St. Clair.
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### Author:  [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)
#### Post date: [November 6, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/113 "2009-11-06T18:13:20Z")
> [@zenith](#):
>
> That one wasn’t an estimate, it was a carefully-contrived test under ideal conditions that nobody living in an area with real winter could duplicate.
Cite?
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### Author:  [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)
#### Post date: [November 6, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/114 "2009-11-06T18:18:11Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#):
>
> You mean the “estimate” where they actually drove 313 miles? That “estimate”?
MPG (and correspondingly, range) estimates have very little to do with how “far you can go.” If you are on a perfectly level road, and NEVER use the brake, and press the accelerator lightly, you can go 10x the MPG on any car.
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### Author:  [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)
#### Post date: [November 7, 2009, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/115 "2009-11-07T00:04:37Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#):
>
> MPG (and correspondingly, range) estimates have very little to do with how “far you can go.” If you are on a perfectly level road, and NEVER use the brake, and press the accelerator lightly, you can go 10x the MPG on any car.
Sure, but the test under reasonably normal conditions (see previous posts) ended up at around 240.
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### Author:  [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)
#### Post date: [November 7, 2009, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/116 "2009-11-07T01:17:00Z")
If we plan to put 100 million electric cars on the road, we are going to need a lot of lithium. Is there enough to go around?
Incidentally lithium ore is found in northern NJ-will this industry revive?
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### Author:  [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)
#### Post date: [November 7, 2009, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/117 "2009-11-07T03:57:38Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#):
>
> MPG (and correspondingly, range) estimates have very little to do with how “far you can go.” If you are on a perfectly level road, and NEVER use the brake, and press the accelerator lightly, you can go 10x the MPG on any car.
I skipped over the 10x thing on my first response, but I assume you don’t really mean 10x. For example, if I drove my car on the same road they did the 313 miles on, and I put the cruise control on 55mph (like they did), you’re not saying my car would go 2,000 to 3,000 miles on a tank of gas, are you?
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### Author:  [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)
#### Post date: [November 7, 2009, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/118 "2009-11-07T05:09:27Z")
Perhaps my accusation that they were hypermiling was misplaced, but you can go 2x by inflating your tires all the way and doing 30 in a straight line.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [November 7, 2009, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/119 "2009-11-07T07:22:08Z")
> [@ralph124c](#):
>
> If we plan to put 100 million electric cars on the road, we are going to need a lot of lithium. Is there enough to go around?
> Incidentally lithium ore is found in northern NJ-will this industry revive?
There’s a lot of lithium: wiki =\*Since the end of World War II lithium metal production has greatly increased. The metal is separated from other elements in igneous minerals such as those above. Lithium salts are extracted from the water of mineral springs, brine pools and brine deposits.
The metal is produced electrolytically from a mixture of fused lithium and potassium chloride. In 1998 it was about US$ 43 per pound ($95 per kg).[40]
Deposits of lithium are found in South America throughout the Andes mountain chain. Chile is the leading lithium metal producer, followed by Argentina. Both countries recover the lithium from brine pools. In the United States lithium is recovered from brine pools in Nevada.[41] Nearly half the world’s known reserves are located in Bolivia, a nation sitting along the central eastern slope of the Andes. In 2009 Bolivia is negotiating with Japanese, French, and even Korean firms to begin extraction.[42] According to the US Geological Survey, Bolivia’s Uyuni Desert has 5.4 million tons of lithium, which can be used to make batteries for hybrid and electric vehicles.[42][43]
China may emerge as a significant producer of brine-source lithium carbonate around 2010. There is potential production of up to 55,000 tons per year if projects in Qinghai province and Tibet proceed.[44]
The total amount of lithium recoverable from global reserves has been estimated at 35 million tonnes, which includes 15 million tons of the known global lithium reserve base.[45]
In 1976 a National Research Council Panel estimated lithium resources at 10.6 million tons for the Western World.[46] With the inclusion of Russian and Chinese resources as well as new discoveries in Australia, Serbia, Argentina and the United States, the total had nearly tripled by 2008\*
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### Author:  [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)
#### Post date: [November 7, 2009, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/120 "2009-11-07T12:42:20Z")
I can see there being a market for electric cars in densely packed cities like Tokyo or London (or other places in Europe), but it’s still going to be a while before they’re a common sight on the roads, I think.
The other problem is that electricity is expensive- around 15c/kilowatt here. I just hate to think what it would cost to try and power an electric car based on recharging at those prices. Especially since Australians like to drive long distances and I know plenty of people who think nothing of driving from Sydney to Brisbane (or vice versa), a distance of 1,000kms, purely for something to do at the weekend. Electric cars are not going to be much good for that at the moment due to their long recharge times.
Also, with demand increasing for electricity, the price is going to go up. Most of Australia’s power is coal based, and there is (I read somewhere fairly reputable… _Time? Popular Science?_ somewhere like that) enough coal in Australia to meet our foreseeable electricity needs until the end of time.
But I don’t believe those projections were based on the “Everyone suddenly gets a _Demolition Man_-style electric car to zip round in” model of the future, so unless Australia suddenly builds nuclear plants (unlikely because of the tree-hugging brigade) or more coal plants (ditto) electricity is just going to get really expensive. Assuming someone doesn’t use the wonders of Science!™ to invent Cold Fusion or solar panels that generate limitless power or [del]a doomsday device[/del] something useful and science fiction-y like that.
Which is a shame, because I’d like an electric car. I read on the BBC website that the Germans are remaking Trabants as electric cars and my first thought was “I must have one!”, followed by “I wonder if Hindustan Motors will make an electric version of the Ambassador? I’d like one of them too.” 😃
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### Author:  [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)
#### Post date: [November 7, 2009, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-the-electric-car/515964/121 "2009-11-07T15:18:08Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#):
>
> Especially since Australians like to drive long distances and I know plenty of people who think nothing of driving from Sydney to Brisbane (or vice versa), a distance of 1,000kms, purely for something to do at the weekend. Electric cars are not going to be much good for that at the moment due to their long recharge times.
As air travel becomes more and more of a pain in the ass, more people just drive. My Wife’s father died October 2nd this year at 11pm. We both decided that the best thing for us to do was to drive to the funeral. 1600 miles each way.
The parallel hybrids that are popular today are better for city stop and go travel. That’s great. I think that serial hybrids like the Volt are the way to go for many folks though. A pure electric car? Not so much. Needs change on a day to day basis and a pure electric can’t adjust to those needs.
And please, the “just rent a car for long trips” option is just not feasible for many folks. It sure isn’t for me.
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