Who Killed The Electric Car?

Factual Questions
82

If we all bought cars for the same reasons - using the same metrics…we’d all have the same car. For some people EVs are appealing for various reasons, for others - they’re not ready yet.

Here’s the one bit of killer info that no one else has mentioned. Electric Motors are more efficient than gasoline motors. While Gasoline is more efficient than batteries for energy storage by weight - that difference gets smaller every day.

The most energy efficient engine is a diesel-electric engine like trains use. Diesel to run a generator to power an electric motor that makes the vehicle go. But diesel engines do not like cold weather at all. So Chevy went with the next best - Gasoline Electric.

The Volt is just the first major company manufactured car using that technology. As others embrace it and the R&D is amorticized, the prices will drop.

Every penny that gas prices rise brings the hybrid/EV costs down over the life of the vehicle in comparison to a pure fossil fuel car. When they become popular enough. Battery Recycling/Reconditioning shops will be as common as Ink Cartridge refill shops are today.

But what incentive is there to get in early on the EV or hybrid market? About the same as there is to buy a Lexus instead of a Toyota or a Lincoln instead of a Ford. It makes you feel better for some reason (though not the same reason as rich corinthian leather and and the surround sound 72" plasma in every headrest of the luxury cars.) its a niche market today. Tomorrow it could be the whole market.

I still have hope for some other alternative fuels. But Electricity is the only fuel that we can be sure we won’t run out of. We can renew electricity source indefinitely as long as the sun shines and the wind blows and the rivers flow. Even Hydrogen for Hydrogen fuel cells needs electricity to separate the Hydrogen out of the water. (Its just another form of energy storage). The benefit of gasoline is that we don’t have to generate all the energy in it, but gasoline is not going to last forever and soon it may not be affordable in the US for a middle income family.

The who killed the EV movie has a lot of valid points, but the only thing that really killed the EV was the lack of sufficient demand at the price they could sell it for and make a profit to justify developing it to full production.

Economy of scale arguement is pure speculation. True its cheaper if its mass produced as far as produciton costs, but if you increase the demand for raw materials you increase the cost. It takes years to recoup the costs of retooling and research and development. If GM saw a profit in the near enough future by putting the car into full production, they are a business that likes money, they would have put it into production. Making money is the ONLY purpose of a publicly traded corporation. There are no ulterior motives. The people making the decisions had to honestly believe they wouldn’t make as much money with the EV1 as they would without it.

83

Quoth Airman Doors:

OK, that may be accurate with the state of the technology right now. But how many one-car households are there, vs. two-car? Surely we could replace one of the cars in almost every two-car households with an electric and avoid these issues. Two-car families already make decisions about who’s going to use which car when based on things like mileage. You could have a situation where, say, Dad works 10 miles from home and Mom works 50 miles from home, so Dad usually uses the 80-mile-range electric while Mom uses the 300-mile-range gas car, but on family road trips they all go in the gas car.

And while just replacing one car out of every two-car household with an electric would not completely remove our dependence on gasoline, it would take a big chunk out of it. The perfect is the enemy of the good: This is a good idea, so let’s do it.

84

There is a pretty simple solution to the occasional long distance trip problem in electric cars - a trailer with a gasoline or diesel engine, generator & fuel tank - you can get by with a small engine, since it only has to generate the average amount of power you need, not the peak. 25kw, as mentioned by Dog80, is only 33 horsepower; a 50 horsepower engine would give a comfortable safety margin.

85

Exactly what I was going to say, Chronos. There are plenty of two and three car households out there. If you go on a cross-country trip every month, you take the gas car. For your daily commute and hauling the kids to soccer practice, you take the electric.

And of course, a plug-in hybrid gets you the best of both worlds–an electric vehicle that you can recharge either by plugging it in overnight, or by running an onboard gasoline generator. You can “recharge” by pulling into any conventional gas station and filling the tank, and now you can travel across country once a month by using gas, and travel on your daily commute by using household overnight recharge. And you only need one plug-in hybrid per household, the others can be pure EVs.

86

or buy a Volt

87

My drive to work and back is 15 miles tops.
BUT, last week I had to hop into my car and make a 850 mi trip to Colorado Springs in a single 12 hour run. So I would need an electric car for everyday use and an ICE one for long trips? Not very economical. Plus it doesn’t consider the costs (monetary and environmental) to replace the batteries in 5 years when they crap out.

88

That depends. I can rent a car for $50 unlimited mileage. Depending upon the frequency of the these trips, it’s certainly probable that I have saved at least $50 in fuel costs or oil changes or what-have-you.

89

Not every tool fits every problem.

Regarding batteries every 5 years:
I calc a saving of about $15,000 on fuel costs over 5 years (for my car).
Batteries are currently $20,000 (according to some forum I googled)

Looks like a net loss right now (although it’s possible there are savings on maintenance).

90

On the other hand, if electric cars become immensely popular, you’ll most likely have car rental places figure out they’re losing money when more people are taking them for long distance drives. Right now, I suspect that the reason most of them have unlimited mileage is that the times when they lose money from a long term trip are outweighed by the hassle to both the rental company and the customer in figuring out the mileage. But when a substantial part of their consumer base are those taking a trip that is too long for an electric car (as opposed to short trips after flying into a city,) that it will once more be worthwhile for them to start charging for mileage again after a certain point.

91

Both the cost and lifespan of a battery are straight out of a hat. $20,000 seems really really high, given that the G-Wiz costs about $13k total.

92

My figures were regarding the Tesla. They say on their web site 7 years but to be conservative, 5 years seemed fair.

Although I found forums where the cost was listed as $20k, here’s info from Tesla’s CEO:

“Something we missed in Tesla CEO Elon Musk’s newsletter the other day: He says that the laboriously hand-assembled lithium-ion battery pack in the Tesla Roadster would cost about $36,000 to replace today, but should last at least 100,000 miles, or about 7 years.”

They are taking $12k future orders on batteries, assuming the cost to mfg will drop.

93

They call it a Prius :stuck_out_tongue:

94

I think the idea behind putting it in a trailer is that you’d only need to attach it (and the extra weight) for long trips, but for shorter trips you could do without.

95

I agree with most of the comments that electric/hybrid vehicles are in our future. I also think it’s a very good thing. And as people buy them and use them, the problems will be overcome.

An anecdote if I may. I work for county government in the mountains of Colorado. We have a fleet of about 20 vehicles between the different departments. We had had Jeep Cherokees. They did great for the mountain driving we have to do.

Since the Cherokee is gone, we have replaced them with ICE Ford Escapes. And as an experiment, one Ford Escape Hybrid (all of them 4x4s). The Hybrid just didn’t cut it. People that complained about it took the fleet manager for a drive in it. It couldn’t even climb over a curb. This really, really surprised me (I would have thought that the torque of the motor would be great for a 4 wheel drive), but so much for our Hybrid experiment.

Now, I suppose it may have been a problem with that particular vehicle, I don’t know. And I never drove it myself.

I would agree that many two car families could probably make do with one EV or Hybrid. I like the serial design of the Volt myself, should be less complex than a parallel hybrid. And it removes the limited range of a strictly electric vehicle. What’s not to like?

With GPS and trip planners common and a little input from the driver, the serial hybrid could best calculate (based on speed, time at destination, and other factors) if the ICE should start charging or not. Hell, my cell phones GPS can give me gas prices anywhere along a route. And direct me right to it.

As a backyard mechanic that has spent many an afternoon with busted knuckles and stinking of gear oil, I have nothing against the hybrid.

As a computer programmer, I think that hybrids will be easier to work on than a V8 with a transmission and transfer case (for 4x4s). But it is going to take a pro. The days of dropping your transmission for the average guy are over. But that’s OK. Things change.

A pet peeve, and some information so that we are all on the same page. Gasoline or diesel powers an engine. Electricity powers a motor. (my apologies to motor heads).

96

Rentals aren;t all that safe as getting used to a new car is dangerous, due to different blind spots, braking, and what not.

There is no niche that an electric car fills that a plug-in hybrid doesn;t do better.

But of course, in order to use either, one needs a garage. I have a car port, which has no plug. Where would my electric car plug into?

97

Or try to set up a charging station for this.

98

A hybrid is less efficient than a pure electric vehicle, since you are dragging around an extra couple hundred lbs of engine. It also has more things to break.

99

You need less batteries, which are very heavy.

100

Then you reduce electric range in trade for burning fuel.

101

My dad would always say that… in russian.

But usually, “the good” is also cheaper than “the better/perfect.” And if electric cars were sold at low prices (and theoretically they are simpler and cheaper to produce), then they’d have their market. But they’re not. Why?