# 'Who knew signing up for DNR was so complex?" You, dear.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-knew-signing-up-for-dnr-was-so-complex-you-dear/784970
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Created:** [April 22, 2017, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-knew-signing-up-for-dnr-was-so-complex-you-dear/784970 "2017-04-22T05:24:45Z")
**Posts on this page:** 14
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@DooWahDiddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DooWahDiddy)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2017, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-knew-signing-up-for-dnr-was-so-complex-you-dear/784970/21 "2017-04-23T03:34:16Z")
This thread reads like a David Foster Wallace novel.
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### Author:  [@Helena330](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helena330)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2017, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-knew-signing-up-for-dnr-was-so-complex-you-dear/784970/22 "2017-04-23T03:59:30Z")
Yes, she’s the one sick, **dropzone** , but you deserve and NEED time for yourself, too. Take a day or two away, for starters. I’m sorry all this is going on.
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### Author:  [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2017, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-knew-signing-up-for-dnr-was-so-complex-you-dear/784970/23 "2017-04-23T04:58:27Z")
> [@DooWahDiddy](#):
>
> This thread reads like a David Foster Wallace novel.
That was the worst insult imaginable. Take away at least one of his names immediately, making it more like the shit she reads, or it will be flintlocks at dawn! Making him a woman would also help.
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### Author:  [@bobkitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobkitty)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2017, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-knew-signing-up-for-dnr-was-so-complex-you-dear/784970/24 "2017-04-23T15:49:18Z")
I think I’m going to back out of this thread. For those of us who have been in your shoes, you’re not coming across nearly as amusing as you think you are, and your description of your behavior mirrors my mother’s “I have issues but I’m not going to address them because I’m too busy trying to look like a martyr” version of caregiving to make me want to engage further.
Good luck.
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### Author:  [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)
#### Post date: [April 24, 2017, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-knew-signing-up-for-dnr-was-so-complex-you-dear/784970/25 "2017-04-24T02:29:53Z")
Well, asked, “What would you think if I moved into nursing home permanently? Now that I’m on hemodialysis I can go to one closer to home.”
“Like the one your mom’s in, and you two can spend every waking minute together!”
After dodging the swarm of daggers her eyes sent my way I said, “With hemodialysis you can again eat garlic,” which isn’t removed by peritoniteal dialysis.
She’s more optimistic. I can relax some. I did take yesterday off. Sometimes visiting her is too similar to sitting next to a deathbed.
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### Author:  [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)
#### Post date: [April 24, 2017, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-knew-signing-up-for-dnr-was-so-complex-you-dear/784970/26 "2017-04-24T15:28:34Z")
> [@bobkitty](#):
>
> I spent several years working full time, going to school full time, and being a caregiver to my terminally ill husband. At one point I was working 50-60 hours a week, going to school two nights a week, and doing a 20-hour a week internship; husband was in the MICU waiting for a transplant. The house, from one direction, was 45 minutes from work, 60 from my internship site, 30 from school; the hospital was 90 minutes in the other direction.
:eek:
Consider me humbled. Jesus.
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### Author:  [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)
#### Post date: [April 24, 2017, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-knew-signing-up-for-dnr-was-so-complex-you-dear/784970/27 "2017-04-24T15:39:02Z")
> [@Broomstick](#):
>
> That includes declaring yourself DNR.
> [@susan](#):
>
> I’ve had a DNR my whole adult life, for philosophical rather than medical reasons.
Where are you folks finding doctors who will sign a DNR for a healthy person with no increased risk of cardiac death? (Not trying to be snarky, I would really like to know, and get them to sign mine, or at least learn how you approached that conversation successfully.)
Cause THAT’S the hard part. “Declaring yourself DNR” does nothing until someone with an MD after their name signs the form. A DNR is a medical (physician’s) order, not a Living Will. And they usually won’t do it until you’ve got significant CV risks already.
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### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [April 24, 2017, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-knew-signing-up-for-dnr-was-so-complex-you-dear/784970/28 "2017-04-24T17:01:10Z")
> [@WhyNot](#):
>
> Where are you folks finding doctors who will sign a DNR for a healthy person with no increased risk of cardiac death? (Not trying to be snarky, I would really like to know, and get them to sign mine, or at least learn how you approached that conversation successfully.)
In mom’s case she had a life-long history of cardiac problems, two open-heart surgeries, and, eventually a half dozen heart attacks and a stroke on her record so I would think she fell under “increased risk of cardiac death”.
> [@](#):
>
> Cause THAT’S the hard part. “Declaring yourself DNR” does nothing until someone with an MD after their name signs the form. A DNR is a medical (physician’s) order, not a Living Will. And they usually won’t do it until you’ve got significant CV risks already.
It certainly helps if you have a long-term relationship with a physician. Something not as common as it used to be. As I noted in my post, if you’re a healthy person you WILL get pushback from the medical people.
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### Author:  [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)
#### Post date: [April 24, 2017, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-knew-signing-up-for-dnr-was-so-complex-you-dear/784970/29 "2017-04-24T17:15:42Z")
> [@Broomstick](#):
>
> In mom’s case she had a life-long history of cardiac problems, two open-heart surgeries, and, eventually a half dozen heart attacks and a stroke on her record so I would think she fell under “increased risk of cardiac death”.
Oh, definitely.
It probably would have been better for me to have quoted that more fully in context:
> [@](#):
>
> You have a right to refuse any type of medical treatment you don’t want, and you can refuse it at any time. That includes declaring yourself DNR.
“You” may technically have the right to refuse (MOST) types of medical treatment (there’s a lot that pregnant women can’t refuse, but that’s another topic), but unless You has a significant Thing wrong, if You is under 70, DNR is a theoretical right, not a practical one.
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### Author:  [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)
#### Post date: [April 24, 2017, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-knew-signing-up-for-dnr-was-so-complex-you-dear/784970/30 "2017-04-24T17:37:05Z")
I’m not sure how to answer the question. Every new primary care place I’ve ever gone in any state has asked if I have this documentation available, wants a copy, and has me file it with the hospital if I’m going to have any procedure. I have no cardiac issues.
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### Author:  [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)
#### Post date: [April 24, 2017, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-knew-signing-up-for-dnr-was-so-complex-you-dear/784970/31 "2017-04-24T20:28:02Z")
> [@susan](#):
>
> I’m not sure how to answer the question. Every new primary care place I’ve ever gone in any state has asked if I have this documentation available, wants a copy, and has me file it with the hospital if I’m going to have any procedure. I have no cardiac issues.
I’d be very interested to know whose name is signed on it. (I mean, not specifically, but, “four PCPs ago”, or “my allergist”.) Some doctor must have signed it for you at some point, or it’s not a valid DNR - which surely one of your office staff or nurses would have mentioned to you by now if it wasn’t signed. And…kudos to them. That’s really a wonderful thing that I totally support, because I do believe that all of us, at any time no matter what our age or health status, \*should \*be able to refuse CPR.
Other Advance Directives, including Living Wills and Healthcare Proxies, don’t need a Physician’s signature. I cannot find a state exception to a DNR requiring a Physician’s signature.
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### Author:  [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)
#### Post date: [April 24, 2017, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-knew-signing-up-for-dnr-was-so-complex-you-dear/784970/32 "2017-04-24T22:05:48Z")
The DNRs I’ve filled out (headed “DNR”) have always been in a packet with Advance Directive materials. I couldn’t say who’s signed them, because I’ve always handed them to the front desk.
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### Author:  [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)
#### Post date: [April 24, 2017, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-knew-signing-up-for-dnr-was-so-complex-you-dear/784970/33 "2017-04-24T22:06:07Z")
I’ve written on this topic a few times here before. Below find what I considered the most cogent points I made in 3 previous threads on the issue. Take what you can use. And note that it’s just the most cogent stuff I wrote, not that it’s all _that_ cogent. 😉
> [@Getting a do not resuscitate order](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-a-do-not-resuscitate-order/730271/18):
>
> Best check your state law (in the US). In many states, one must be a ‘qualified’ patient for it to be legal for a physician to write a DNR order for you. ‘Qualified’ usually means that you have a disease process which is anticipated to be fatal within a relatively short time, such as a year, or that you suffer from a condition such that attempts to resuscitate you would be even more futile than average, or particularly cruel, or would just prolong you in a very painful state.
>
> QtM, author of many DNR orders.
> [@Assisted-dying laws: What defines "terminal" in terminal illness?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/assisted-dying-laws-what-defines-terminal-in-terminal-illness/776259/3):
>
> My state (WI) defines “terminal condition” as an incurable condition caused by injury or illness that reasonable medical judgment finds would cause death imminently, so that the application of life-sustaining procedures serves only to postpone the moment of death.
>
> From Chapter 154, Declarations to Physicians and do-not-resuscitate orders Wis. Stats. Database
>
> The state seems to leave it up to my reasonable medical judgment as to what time frame imminently falls into. Thanks, state! I’ve lost some sleep over that one on a few occasions. But not on most of them, I will admit.
> [@Do not resuscitate order](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-resuscitate-order/436291/3):
>
> One needs to make sure that a DNR order is done right, and that all state laws are obeyed. If the proper regulations & processes are not observed, a DNR order will not be honored by many health professionals.
>
> For example: In Wisconsin, a patient must be certified to be a _qualified_ patient by two physicians, one of whom is the attending doctor. Among other things, a _qualified_ patient is one who is expected to die within 6 months, or one who has a condition which would make attempts at resuscitation futile, or cruel.
>
> Then, the patient (or the patient’s Medical Power of Attorney or Guardian if the patient is not competent) must sign.
>
> And then the signature must be witnessed by two disinterested parties, who also sign the proper forms.
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### Author:  [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)
#### Post date: [April 25, 2017, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-knew-signing-up-for-dnr-was-so-complex-you-dear/784970/34 "2017-04-25T00:01:22Z")
> [@bobkitty](#):
>
> I think I’m going to back out of this thread. For those of us who have been in your shoes, you’re not coming across nearly as amusing as you think you are, and your description of your behavior mirrors my mother’s “I have issues but I’m not going to address them because I’m too busy trying to look like a martyr” version of caregiving to make me want to engage further.
It’s called whistling in the graveyard. I’ve been spending too much time near tears, but I’m a guy of a certain age and feel a duty to seem tough. Not trying to look like a martyr, and if I could be offended I would be. I’m trying to be a supportive husband of a woman who wants to die, and my needs are secondary.
Anyway, I grew up Catholic and in the day we were rather fond of martyrdom.
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