# Who made the first loaf of bread? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 21, 2004, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-made-the-first-loaf-of-bread/251467 "2004-06-21T16:56:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2004, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-made-the-first-loaf-of-bread/251467/1 "2004-06-21T16:56:12Z")
Who was the first person to come up with the idea of taking a severely low-yield food, cracking the hulls, grinding up the seeds, mixing the powder with water, salt, yeast, raisins, cinnamon, and baking it up for a tasty Sunday morning meal? Let’s start again: Who was the first person to ever consider wild wheat to be a useful source of food? Another question: Who was the first person to say “Hey, Og, go up to wild kyne, pull on dick, maybe liquid cheese come out”? I suppose I can hypothesize a few scenarios, but for such staples of our diets, breads and dairy seem like such unlikely sources. Has there been any speculation that has been more or less proven? ---
**Author:** ![CC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2004, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-made-the-first-loaf-of-bread/251467/2 "2004-06-21T17:50:59Z")
Let’s start with this - you don’t really think that someone is going to answer your question with an actual name, do you? Do you speculate that someone named Ernie just invented bread one day, and ever since, we’ve been making it that way? Just about everything that’s part of our societies and cultures - including the people themselves - evolved over thousands and millions of years. These features can be traced way back sometimes, and sometimes not. Bread couldn’t have just been invented one day. Maybe what you want to know is how did the different ingredients come to be part of the commonly used formulas of today. Still, I think it’s unlikely that someone will be able to point to a single person or day and tell you that, say, it was on a Thursday in 4,321 BCE that a guy named Ernie first put yeast in a flour and water mixture. What do you really want to know? By the way, no one had to tell OG, or anyone else, how to derive sexual pleasure - it’s virtually instinctive - otherwise NOone would have been here to answer your question. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2004, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-made-the-first-loaf-of-bread/251467/3 "2004-06-21T18:24:49Z")
> [@CC](#): > > Let’s start with this - you don’t really think that someone is going to answer your question with an actual name, do you? Don’t be silly. Of course I don’t need a name. A social security number will do just fine. Let me rephrase: Is there any evidence or speculation as to how bread came about? How about the milking of animals? Better? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2004, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-made-the-first-loaf-of-bread/251467/4 "2004-06-21T18:31:31Z")
There’s speculation, sure, but this isn’t the right forum for that. Interesting side note: In the SCA (medieval recreation stuff), one of the constant annoyances to those who try to recreate medieval feasts is that, although we know for certain that they had bread in period, nobody ever wrote down any recipes for it… ---
**Author:** ![Popup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@Popup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Popup)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-made-the-first-loaf-of-bread/251467/5 "2004-06-22T12:24:21Z")
We don’t quite know who, but we can know roughly where and how. At first bread was rather boring stuff, and probably the result of porridge spilled on hot stones. (Agriculture probablly predates baking. At first some kind of gruel was made out of the grains.) The idea of leaving the bread to prove probably came a lot later (maybe 5000BCE?), and for a long time sourdough-type bread was very common, especially in Egypt. The baking of bread and the brewing of beer have always been closelly connected, and it’s not a coincidence that one yeast sometimes (but not often) used for baking is called _Saccharomyces carlsbergensis_. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-made-the-first-loaf-of-bread/251467/6 "2004-06-22T12:59:19Z")
You are really going to have to define bread. People have been grinding up grass seeds and mixing the resultant mess with water and then baking it for at tens of thousands of years. Exactly when someone considered wild wheat to be a useful food source is anyone’s guess, but it’s a safe bet that the person was already used to collecting and grinding the seeds of other grasses from more southerly parts of Africa. She almost certainly simply adopted the same technique to wheat. ---
**Author:** ![AbbySthrnAccent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@AbbySthrnAccent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AbbySthrnAccent)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-made-the-first-loaf-of-bread/251467/7 "2004-06-22T18:18:08Z")
You might find [link](http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/2639768) interesting albeit brief (har). Scroll down to the bottom. It’s about when we begain eating grain rather than bread though. ---
**Author:** ![AbbySthrnAccent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@AbbySthrnAccent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AbbySthrnAccent)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-made-the-first-loaf-of-bread/251467/8 "2004-06-22T18:21:17Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Exactly when someone considered wild wheat to be a useful food source is anyone’s guess, but it’s a safe bet that the person was already used to collecting and grinding the seeds of other grasses from more southerly parts of Africa. She almost certainly simply adopted the same technique to wheat. According to the link in my above post grains were only added to our diet 23,000 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![CC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-made-the-first-loaf-of-bread/251467/9 "2004-06-22T19:57:50Z")
> [@Popup](#): > > The idea of leaving the bread to prove probably came a lot later (maybe 5000BCE?) Maybe this is a baking term? I don’t understand. “…leaving the bread to prove”??? leavening? to rise? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-made-the-first-loaf-of-bread/251467/10 "2004-06-22T20:29:47Z")
> [@CC](#): > > Maybe this is a baking term? I don’t understand. “…leaving the bread to prove”??? leavening? to rise? It actually should be “to proof,” not “to prove.” Proofing can refer to a couple of things. You proof your yeast by putting it in water and checking to see if it’s activing. You proof your dough by letting it rise undisturbed in a slightly warm/moist environment. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Lao](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dr.Lao](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Lao)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-made-the-first-loaf-of-bread/251467/11 "2004-06-22T20:51:27Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Who was the first person to come up with the idea of taking a severely low-yield food, cracking the hulls, grinding up the seeds, mixing the powder with water, salt, yeast, raisins, cinnamon, and baking it up for a tasty Sunday morning meal? What makes you think wheat is a low-yield food? We devote an awful lot of effort to growing it nowadays. It is was probably one of the earliest domesticated plants because it was so high yielding and in the intervening 12,000 years or so we haven’t found much that improves upon it (with the exception of corn or rice perhaps). According to [this](http://www.foodstudents.com/deutsch/themenarchiv/maerz_004_e.html), baked, flat (unlevened) bread goes back 5,000 years. Both were evident in ancient Egypt and Greece. It seems like reports of bread go back as far as we have written reports of anything. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Lao](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dr.Lao](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Lao)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-made-the-first-loaf-of-bread/251467/12 "2004-06-22T20:58:25Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > It actually should be “to proof,” not “to prove.” Proofing can refer to a couple of things. You proof your yeast by putting it in water and checking to see if it’s activing. You proof your dough by letting it rise undisturbed in a slightly warm/moist environment. I agree that is likely what he meant. I don’t believe English is Popup’s native language and it is easy to see how the verb form of “proof” might have not worked its way into his vocabulary. It isn’t exactly common. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2004, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-made-the-first-loaf-of-bread/251467/13 "2004-06-22T22:56:42Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Another question: Who was the first person to say “Hey, Og, go up to wild kyne, pull on dick, maybe liquid cheese come out”? They most likely would have seen baby kynes eating from the teat and decided to try and duplicate it. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-made-the-first-loaf-of-bread/251467/14 "2004-06-23T03:52:53Z")
> [@](#): > > According to the link in my above post grains were only added to our diet 23,000 years ago. Considering that we have HG grindstones dating form 30, 000 years ago that claim is ridiculous. HGs have almost certainly been eating grains since well before they left Africa. ---
**Author:** ![AbbySthrnAccent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@AbbySthrnAccent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AbbySthrnAccent)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-made-the-first-loaf-of-bread/251467/15 "2004-06-23T03:56:39Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Considering that we have HG grindstones dating form 30, 000 years ago that claim is ridiculous. HGs have almost certainly been eating grains since well before they left Africa. I realize that newspapers can make mistakes. You are welcome to link to a more authoritative cite. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-made-the-first-loaf-of-bread/251467/16 "2004-06-23T04:05:51Z")
From the official Australian Museum website. Also discovered at Cuddie Springs was a sandstone grinding stone fragment thought to be approximately 30,000 years old. It is believed to be the oldest known grinding stone in the world and pre-dates others found in the Northern Hemisphere by 20,000 years. [http://www.lostkingdoms.com/snapshots/pleistocene\_cuddie\_springs.htm](http://www.lostkingdoms.com/snapshots/pleistocene_cuddie_springs.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Popup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@Popup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Popup)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-made-the-first-loaf-of-bread/251467/17 "2004-06-23T10:12:15Z")
> [@Dr. Lao](#): > > I agree that is likely what he meant. I don’t believe English is Popup’s native language and it is easy to see how the verb form of “proof” might have not worked its way into his vocabulary. It isn’t exactly common. Thank you, **Dr. Lao** , for giving me the benefit of the doubt. While it’s true that English is not my native tongue, I’m pretty sure that I’ve picked up ‘to prove’ from my (english-language) books on cooking. A quick dictionary search does indeed prove that it’s not the recomended variant (at least M-W only lists ‘to proof’), but it’s widely used, both on the web and in literature. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Lao](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dr.Lao](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Lao)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-made-the-first-loaf-of-bread/251467/18 "2004-06-23T11:35:24Z")
Interesting. It may be a regional thing (maybe in British English), because I have never heard or read of “prove” used in reference to baking. And I’ve been sort of reading up on it lately. ---
**Author:** ![SCSimmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@SCSimmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCSimmons)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-made-the-first-loaf-of-bread/251467/19 "2004-06-23T12:22:38Z")
> [@Dr. Lao](#): > > What makes you think wheat is a low-yield food? We devote an awful lot of effort to growing it nowadays. It is was probably one of the earliest domesticated plants because it was so high yielding and in the intervening 12,000 years or so we haven’t found much that improves upon it (with the exception of corn or rice perhaps). Ever read Verne’s _The Mysterious Island_? Five travellers are stranded on an uninhabited island in the South Pacific. There’s an interesting discussion when, after several months of precarious survival on the island, one of them finds a single grain of wheat that was caught in his coat’s lining. > [@](#): > > “Well, my boy,” said Pencroft, laughing, “we’re getting on capitally, upon my word! What shall we make with one grain of corn?” [Note to U.S. Dopers: ‘corn’ is used here as a generic term for ‘grain’; our ‘corn’ is usually referred to in the King’s English as ‘maize’ or ‘Indian corn’.] > “We will make bread of it,” replied Cyrus Harding. > “Bread, cakes, tarts!” replied the sailor. “Come, the bread that this grain of corn will make won’t choke us very soon!” > … > “Pencroft,” [Harding] asked quietly, “do you know how many ears one grain of corn can produce?” > “One, I suppose!” replied the sailor, surprised at the question. > “Ten, Pencroft! And do you know how many grains one ear bears?” > “No, upon my word.” > “About eighty!” said Cyrus Harding. “Then, if we plant this grain, at the first crop we shall reap eight hundred grains which at the second will produce six hundred and forty thousand; and the third, five hundred and twelve million; at the fourth, more than four hundred thousands of million! … Do you know how many bushels four hundred thousand million of grains would make?” > “No,” replied the sailor, “but what I do know is, that I am nothing better than a fool!” > “Well, they would make more than three million, at a hundred and thirty thousand a bushel, Pencroft.” > “Three million!” cried Pencroft. > “Three million.” > “In four years?” > “In four years,” replied Cyrus Harding, “and even in two years if, as I hope, in this latitude we can obtain two crops a year.” High-yield, indeed. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ponster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponster/32/17081_2.png) [@Ponster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponster)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-made-the-first-loaf-of-bread/251467/20 "2004-06-23T12:27:51Z")
I could only find one Web based dictionary listing _prove_ as : 6: increase in volume; of dough [syn: rise] 7: cause to puff up with a leaven; of dough; “unleavened bread” but in Ireland it’s a word that I was common with. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-made-the-first-loaf-of-bread/251467.md?page=2)