# Who merits professional honorifics? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 31, 2016, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-merits-professional-honorifics/756164 "2016-05-31T14:37:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-merits-professional-honorifics/756164/21 "2016-06-01T00:52:47Z")
I hate it when people call me Dr. If you insist on an honorific, try Prof. Otherwise, Mr. will do fine. ---
**Author:** ![Lowdown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Lowdown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lowdown)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-merits-professional-honorifics/756164/22 "2016-06-01T15:48:41Z")
This thread just reminded me of the time I just met a guy who moved in down the hall in an apartment building I lived in. I said, “Hey, I’m Lowdown. Nice to meet you.” and extended my hand to shake, he shook it and said “I’m Mister Soandso.” We were about the same age. I was like, oooooooookay buddy. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-merits-professional-honorifics/756164/23 "2016-06-01T17:03:43Z")
We have a number of support staff who are essentially paralegals/law clerks. A small percentage of the folk in such positions have law degrees. One in our office has a JD and LLM. I never asked her why she was in such a relatively low-skilled position given her education. But I just noticed that she signs her work product - including e-mails - including JD, LLM. Seems a tad odd. Nothing wrong with her position, and I’m sure there could be any number of reasons for someone with her degrees choosing to do it. But if I were working at a job that did not require my professional qualifications, I would not include those qualifications in my work product. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-merits-professional-honorifics/756164/24 "2016-06-01T19:34:08Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > We have a number of support staff who are essentially paralegals/law clerks. A small percentage of the folk in such positions have law degrees. One in our office has a JD and LLM. I never asked her why she was in such a relatively low-skilled position given her education. But I just noticed that she signs her work product - including e-mails - including JD, LLM. > > Seems a tad odd. Nothing wrong with her position, and I’m sure there could be any number of reasons for someone with her degrees choosing to do it. But if I were working at a job that did not require my professional qualifications, I would not include those qualifications in my work product. Did she ever actually pass the bar? Seems like working as a paralegal and sticking JD/LLM on your email sig is about the best you could do otherwise. Or maybe she wants to work in the legal profession without all the ancillary bullshit that comes from being a lawyer, like billable requirements and extremely long hours. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-merits-professional-honorifics/756164/25 "2016-06-01T19:50:14Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Same here. Aside from the ones I know personally (who are “Bob” or whatever to me), they’re all “Father [whatever].” The situation with Jesuits can get a bit complicated, depending on context, though, because Jesuits tend to have advanced degrees in any number of fields. I’ve known Jesuit physicians, and Jesuit lawyers, and Jesuit academics with Ph.D.s, and so on. The ones I’ve known (can’t speak for the Society, of course) tend to use “Father” in formal settings, even when they’re entitled to the “Dr.” Among other things, the “Father” or “Brother” is something they chose personally and which constitutes their primary occupation: the “Doctor” is highly likely to have been obtained under orders and there are more contexts where it’s irrelevant. My Orgo teacher wanted to be a missionary and teach poor kids, but his superiors decided they’d rather have him work at the university level (I do think they were right, given his tendency to launch into multilingual speeches). Members of the Tertiary Order are also “brother” or “sister”, but it’s not their primary occupation so they don’t use it outside of that specific context (and nowadays, not much there either). ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-merits-professional-honorifics/756164/26 "2016-06-01T20:34:46Z")
Actually, on further thought, it is pretty easy. If I would call a person Mr. or Mrs., I would also call them by any other honorific that they were entitled to, if I were aware of it. If I would not call them Mr. or Mrs., then I would not call them by an honorific. Mr. and Mrs. are simply honorifics that our culture universally awards by default to all adults whom the speaker deems to be worthy of the honor, as a sign of civility. ---
**Author:** ![MrLee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f8ce5/32.png) [@MrLee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrLee)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-merits-professional-honorifics/756164/27 "2016-06-01T20:51:16Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > My general feeling towards honorifics is that they are appropriate in > > 1. Professional contexts > 2. Social contexts where your primary connection with the person is through their professional capacity. > > So I would expect my branch secretary to call me Dr. Godot. If I was at an office party I would also expect the same secretary to call me Dr. Godot, because that is what she is used to calling me. But the guy who installs the cable at my house can call me Mr. Godot and I won’t bat an eye. > > I think this works for other honorifics as well. A priest in my opinion should be called Mr. O’Leary when applying for a credit card but as Father O’Leary by his flock, whether he is in church or just visiting. Yeah, this. I’m a school teacher working on my doctorate now - and I look forward to being referred to as ‘Dr [LastName]’ (instead of ‘Mr [LastName]’) by my students and colleagues. If anyone persisted in using ‘Mr’ with me post-doctorate I would gently but firmly remind them that I am a DoctorNowGoddammit. Childish of me, perhaps, but this thing will have taken 5 years to do - I will milk every ounce of recognition I can get out of any and everybody once it is done. At my university, much like most I suppose, every faculty member has a doctorate. They all refer to each other, and expect us to refer to them, using first names only. I once asked about this; they essentially said that for one academic to expect other academics to refer to them as ‘Dr’ or ‘Professor’ soandso is ridiculously pretentious, outside of very formal contexts. Students might initially speak to an academic using an honorific, and all but the most immodest will instantly say ‘No no, call me [FirstName]!’ To do otherwise would be ghastly… Note that academic journals never present their authors with any honorific titles at all. Academics don’t need honorific titles normally, because everyone has one - and in any case it would be bad form to brandish it unnecessarily. When applying for a credit card, would I call myself ‘Dr’ or ‘Mr’? I think I would go for ‘Mr’. It’s one thing bragging at work about having a doctorate (in a related discipline), but it strikes me as uncouth to bandy it around constantly in contexts in which it has no meaning or relevance. I want the people at my workplace to know I have a doctorate because it speaks to how qualified I am - the same thing doesn’t go for hairdressers, postal workers and retail workers. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-merits-professional-honorifics/756164/28 "2016-06-02T00:27:39Z")
> [@MrLee](#): > > Note that academic journals never present their authors with any honorific titles at all. Academics don’t need honorific titles normally, because everyone has one - and in any case it would be bad form to brandish it unnecessarily. In my field many of the authors of papers in academic journals are from industry. But if you want to find out education levels, look at the bios in the back. And no one gets introduced as Doctor before conference talks either. I have noticed that people who are the only PhD in their department (or school) use Dr. far more frequently on business cards than those from places where it is more common. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-merits-professional-honorifics/756164/29 "2016-06-02T04:41:21Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Ph.D. holder. Students, call me “Dr. Drake” on campus. Colleagues, call me Aloysius. Friends and family call me Aloysius. In a social setting, introduce me as Aloysius Drake, and then call me Aloysius. If I were teaching, yeah that. Dr. when it’s uncalled for is awkward, but students aren’t your peers. > [@mbh](#): > > At my alma mater, there were Associate Professors, Assistant Professors, and full Professors. Professors got paid more. Only Professors were eligible for tenure. You could hold the two lower ranks with only a masters, but you had to have a doctorate before you could apply for the top rank. So it was a big deal. On the first day of the semester, one of my teachers introduced himself to the class saying, “I’m not a professor, I’m only a doctor.” > [@bump](#): > > The Associate/Assistant/Professor hierarchy is pretty standard everywhere in US academia. Okay, but the way that’s described isn’t how it usually works in the US. All three types require a doctorate. The assistant professor doesn’t have tenure, but is often on a tenure track. The associate usually is conferred upon getting tenure (although Google suggests not in some schools, but that is an exception). This advances to full professor at some point, with increased prestige and pay, but the assistant-\>associate step is bigger/more stressful. All three should be called “Professor X” or “Dr. Doom” by students. An adjunct professor has a PhD but is not a full-time employee and not tenure track. Someone with a master’s or bachelor’s is usually an “instructor” or similar. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-merits-professional-honorifics/756164/30 "2016-06-02T09:11:39Z")
You know, I don’t think I’ve ever in my life verbally addressed someone as “Mr.” or “Mrs.”, unless I was doing it sarcastically. It’s just not part of my culture. ---
**Author:** ![Dioptre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/278dde/32.png) [@Dioptre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dioptre)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-merits-professional-honorifics/756164/31 "2016-06-02T10:03:44Z")
I prefer my first name, but I get mildly annoyed if I get called “Mr” instead of “Dr”. It’s just an incorrect title - I worked hard for the one I have. I’d never actually correct someone, though, just grimace inside. I get really annoyed when my university travel bookings are made under “Mr”. If I have to go through the hassle of using layers of admin instead of just booking it myself, at the very least they could get the name right. A lot of our students use Dr Firstname. It’s their way of being friendly and respectful at the same time. Often foreign students are so programmed not to use first names that I’m grateful they compromise on Dr Firstname instead of Dr Lastname. At the other end of things, I get equally annoyed by “Professor”. It’s a very specific title here, and just as inaccurate as “Mr”. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-merits-professional-honorifics/756164/32 "2016-06-02T10:42:10Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > The associate usually is conferred upon getting tenure (although Google suggests not in some schools, but that is an exception). If others will excuse the sidetrack…I know Yale and a few others promote first, then give (or deny) tenure a year or so later. Did you see any where it’s the opposite? > [@MrLee](#): > > Childish of me, perhaps Your students will certainly think so. > [@MrLee](#): > > Note that academic journals never present their authors with any honorific titles at all. None of the American ones I publis in do. But the Germans and other like them, see Angew. Chem. But then again that is the land of “Herr Doktor Professor”. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-merits-professional-honorifics/756164/33 "2016-06-02T12:21:09Z")
When I’m working in Mexico, I much, much prefer my first name. I detest the title _Ingeniero_; just call me _Jim_. I’m not sure if this is still a current thing, but I’ve always hated reading newspapers in the south. The articles are always mention “Mr. Obama” instead of simply “Obama.” In a lot of cases, not even the title is required, and newspaper articles top that list of cases. Perhaps that’s a bad example; style guides may indicate “the President” or something for that particular person. Still, “Mr. Doe” vs. “Doe.” ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-merits-professional-honorifics/756164/34 "2016-06-02T12:39:32Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > You know, I don’t think I’ve ever in my life verbally addressed someone as “Mr.” or “Mrs.”, unless I was doing it sarcastically. It’s just not part of my culture. Not even as a kid, to an adult? How do you define your “culture”? ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-merits-professional-honorifics/756164/35 "2016-06-02T13:13:47Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > I’m not sure if this is still a current thing, but I’ve always hated reading newspapers in the south. The articles are always mention “Mr. Obama” instead of simply “Obama.” In a lot of cases, not even the title is required, and newspaper articles top that list of cases. Perhaps that’s a bad example; style guides may indicate “the President” or something for that particular person. Still, “Mr. Doe” vs. “Doe.” The pre-1960s style manual for the New Orleans Times Picayune directed that the honorific be used to distinguish between white and black referents. A white person would be called Mr. Jones, but a black man just Williams. A white woman would be Mrs. Jones, but if black, would be referred to as “the Williams woman”. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-merits-professional-honorifics/756164/36 "2016-06-02T14:58:21Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > If I were teaching, yeah that. Dr. when it’s uncalled for is awkward, but students aren’t your peers. > > Okay, but the way that’s described isn’t how it usually works in the US. Sure- I just meant that virtually every actual Doctorated professor in a US university has some kind of title with the word “Professor” in it, but that in everyday usage, nobody calls them “Professor X”. They’d be called “Dr. Xavier” or maybe “Charles” by grad students if they’re good with that. But my buddy who works as a history/strategy professor in military post-secondary colleges (like say… the National War College, or Naval War College, for example) is explicitly called “Professor X”, and I’ve always thought it was a bit weird, especially considering he does have a PhD in military history from a highly reputable institution. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-merits-professional-honorifics/756164/37 "2016-06-02T22:02:58Z")
> [@bump](#): > > The Associate/Assistant/Professor hierarchy is pretty standard everywhere in US academia. > > But in some 7 years of time getting 3 degrees from two universities, I can’t say that I ever heard any academics referred to as “Professor” anyone- it was always “Dr.”, even when they might be the world’s foremost authority on something, a full Professor, and a holder of a prestigious endowed chair. My experience as a professor and holder of a PhD is just the opposite. I’m almost never called Dr. Guy and never Mr. Guy at school. It’s either Prof. Guy or Old depending on whose speaking to me. Asian students, for example, almost never call me by my first name until they’ve known me for several years as a PhD student. Americans use my first name much more quickly. Personally I only ever use Dr. when booking airline flights on the perhaps mistaken assumption, the airline might be less likely to bump a doctor. ---
**Author:** ![delphica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9a140/32.png) [@delphica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/delphica)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-merits-professional-honorifics/756164/38 "2016-06-03T03:27:03Z")
I’ll always stick with religious titles, Father/Brother/Sister/Rabbi, really for no other reason that I was raised that way and the habit has stuck. The only Imam I know is a former student so I call him by his first name. The academics at work are my peers, so I’ll usually go right to first name. HOWEVER, it is often handy at work to “promote” people to Dr. when needed – if I don’t know their gender, and let’s say I am writing to them or about them. Perhaps we are an exception, but it’s not unusual at my university to call someone Professor in a similar situation – you’re just not sure in the moment and have to call them something, Professor generally works. Now that I personally am old and cranky, a big pet peeve is when a medical doctor introduces himself to me as “Dr. Surname” and then starts calling me (the patient) by MY first name, which to me is a signal we are on a first name basis. Whippersnappers. But again, it’s easy to default to Nurse, which you can call someone even if you don’t know their name, like when I was in the hospital giving birth and there were a million nurses and I was on drugs, so it seemed okay to say “Excuse me, Nurse?” to whichever one I was talking to. (Although I did make an effort to know the name of the specific nurses assigned to my care, I’m not a _heathen._) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-merits-professional-honorifics/756164/39 "2016-06-03T15:55:34Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Not even as a kid, to an adult? How do you define your “culture”? Israeli. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-merits-professional-honorifics/756164/40 "2016-06-03T16:19:55Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > We have a number of support staff who are essentially paralegals/law clerks. A small percentage of the folk in such positions have law degrees. One in our office has a JD and LLM. I never asked her why she was in such a relatively low-skilled position given her education. But I just noticed that she signs her work product - including e-mails - including JD, LLM. > > Seems a tad odd. Nothing wrong with her position, and I’m sure there could be any number of reasons for someone with her degrees choosing to do it. But if I were working at a job that did not require my professional qualifications, I would not include those qualifications in my work product. In my experience, people who have graduated law school but not passed the bar add the “JD” to their signature in an effort to dodge the actual or perceived disrespect shown by “real” lawyers to paraprofessionals. Oddly enough, it has the opposite effect with me. Being a paralegal is a difficult and necessary job that I couldn’t do, and pretending you’re “above” it rubs me the wrong way. Reeks of inferiority complex to me. Similarly, attorneys who insist on being called “Attorney Smith” also get the side-eye from me, for the same reason. We’re not doctors, and we don’t need some special honorific. Also reeks of inferiority complex. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-merits-professional-honorifics/756164.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-merits-professional-honorifics/756164.md?page=3)