# Who needs guns for anything, anyway? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 7, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-needs-guns-for-anything-anyway/531659 "2010-03-07T22:30:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-needs-guns-for-anything-anyway/531659/41 "2010-03-08T02:15:32Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Don’t be silly. Guns kill people; homosexual marriages don’t. Another false analogy. [/QUOTE] A lot of things kill people. Cheeseburgers, for instance. Cars. Coal fired power plants. Tooth picks. Alcohol. The list is nearly endless. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-needs-guns-for-anything-anyway/531659/42 "2010-03-08T02:17:06Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Luci, do you sleep with your door unlocked and no alarm? If not, why not? There are lots of better pro-gun arguments than this one. Many rural people don’t lock their doors: most urban people use a dead-bolt. But so what? This doesn’t imply that urban dwellers require bazookas to protect themselves or even handguns. I don’t own a firearm: I see no need. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-needs-guns-for-anything-anyway/531659/43 "2010-03-08T02:20:50Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No; over time they would be confiscated and destroyed, lowering the supply. And most guns owned by criminals ultimately come from legal buyers; eliminate the legal market and you starve the illegal one. “Over time” indeed. How long do you think it would take? Heroin and cocaine somehow manage to make their way into this country–you think guns won’t as well? Also, during the period of “over time,” millions of law-abiding Americans will either (i) have no practical way of defending their homes and families or (ii) be forced to break the law, all because you think guns are icky and gross. > [@](#): > > I’m saying the exact opposite. The criminal will win, because he’ll have the gun out and be more willing to shoot; it’s the pro-gun people who think they are gunslingers who can magically draw and fire faster than a guy with a gun already out can kill them. Ah, so it’s the hit-man type movies you’ve seen too much, not the westerns. Look, I have a gun to defend myself against the very unlikely threat of someone breaking into my house. If that someone turns out to be a professional hit man that does not trip the alarm, has his gun drawn, and is ready to shoot, then I’m dead. But that little scenario of your doesn’t mean that I shouldn’t be allowed to have a gun to protect myself from non-hitman threats. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Don’t be silly. Guns kill people; homosexual marriages don’t. Another false analogy. The similarity is in your approach to the issue. You think guns are icky just like many anti-SSM folks thing gay sex is icky. You want all guns to disappear just like many anti-SSM folks want homosexuality to disappear. You think you can make it go away by making them illegal, just like they do. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-needs-guns-for-anything-anyway/531659/44 "2010-03-08T02:22:49Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > There are lots of better pro-gun arguments than this one. Many rural people don’t lock their doors: most urban people use a dead-bolt. But so what? This doesn’t imply that urban dwellers require bazookas to protect themselves or even handguns. > > I don’t own a firearm: I see no need. The fact that you see no need has no bearing on my ownership of a gun. It doesn’t mean that I should similarly see no need. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-needs-guns-for-anything-anyway/531659/45 "2010-03-08T02:59:02Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > The fact that you see no need has no bearing on my ownership of a gun. It doesn’t mean that I should similarly see no need. You replied to a comment that I intended as parenthetical. The point was that it is entirely reasonable to lock your door and not be so frightened as to own a bazooka, AK47, rifle or concealable handgun. As you said, opinions differ as does risk assessment. My point was narrow, and it appears that you agree. Another parenthetical comment: not only is home invasion a _de minimus_ risk (burglary is another matter) but there are far greater hazards than homicide. Examples include car accidents, lung cancer and diseases associated with obesity and lack of exercise. All that said (and again parenthetically), I withhold comment on the advisability of female ownership of firearms. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-needs-guns-for-anything-anyway/531659/46 "2010-03-08T03:05:11Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > You replied to a comment that I intended as parenthetical. The point was that it is entirely reasonable to lock your door and not be so frightened as to own a bazooka, AK47, rifle or concealable handgun. As you said, opinions differ as does risk assessment. > > My point was narrow, and it appears that you agree. > > Another parenthetical comment: not only is home invasion a _de minimus_ risk (burglary is another matter) but there are far greater hazards than homicide. Examples include car accidents, lung cancer and diseases associated with obesity and lack of exercise. All that said (and again parenthetically), **I withhold comment on the advisability of female ownership of firearms**. Ok. I was just responding to the fact that your post focused on what people require and need. The right to bear arms is not contingent on your (or anyone’s) perception of a need to do so. Also, what’s up with the bolded part above? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-needs-guns-for-anything-anyway/531659/47 "2010-03-08T03:08:18Z")
I would suppose that at those rare times when one needs a handgun, the need is rather great and few things would make an adequate substitute. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-needs-guns-for-anything-anyway/531659/48 "2010-03-08T03:10:44Z")
When confronted with a hostile and agressive unicorn, it is a good thing to be a virgin. Otherwise, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![gravitycrash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@gravitycrash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gravitycrash)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-needs-guns-for-anything-anyway/531659/49 "2010-03-08T03:18:43Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > If you arm yourself for fear, you’ve already lost. And no weapon in the world can save you from yourself. I don’t arm myself out of fear and I doubt most gun owners do. I have a gun in case some meth head or whoever feels like barging into my house to threaten me or steal from me. I’m not a danger to anyone unless they invade my home and I don’t care if they have no intention of hurting me. They aren’t allowed to steal my plasma tv either. Make my day. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-needs-guns-for-anything-anyway/531659/50 "2010-03-08T03:19:54Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Ok. I was just responding to the fact that your post focused on what people require and need. The right to bear arms is not contingent on your (or anyone’s) perception of a need to do so. I am dodging the legal and policy issues. There are plenty of posters willing to discuss that. > [@](#): > > Also, what’s up with the bolded part above? I’m confining my attention to the narrower question of individual risk assessment. Females face a different set of mortality and trauma risks than guys do, so I’d like to separate out the issues. For most western males though, I have doubts about the utility of a firearm for enhancing life expectancy, though it clearly is a product with some emotional import. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-needs-guns-for-anything-anyway/531659/51 "2010-03-08T03:20:05Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > You mean like irrational fear and hatred of society, which causes people to want guns and deny peace to others? Yeah, I agree. Let’s see… I’ve used guns to kill feral animals on a farm that were endangering or attacking livestock and other farm animals. I’ve used guns to frighten off people intend on breaking into my house when they knew I was there. (Five separate times) I’ve displayed a firearm to disuade two young men from mugging me in an isolated wayside rest. I carried a firearm as an armed guard for two years. Hell yes, the gun is a necessity, or we’d have been robbed on a regular basis. I’m pretty sure that, on one of my last nights as an armed guard, I could not have successfully convinced a group of 18 young people, four of whom were violent (overturning tables and throwing stuff) to leave a place without incident or further violence, if I had been completely unarmed and simply asking politely. No, I didn’t pull out my gun and I didn’t threaten anyone. But it was the presence of that gun that convinced them that it was probably best to do what I told them to do - don’t fool yourself into thinking otherwise. None of these things had anything to do with fearing “society” or any other bullshit you want to throw out. Don’t project your irrational fear on other people as a way of justifying it. Wishful thinking about people playing nice if only some big bad THING didn’t exist tends to drive Humans to extreme solutions that are much worse in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-needs-guns-for-anything-anyway/531659/52 "2010-03-08T03:23:45Z")
> [@gravitycrash](#): > > I don’t arm myself out of fear and I doubt most gun owners do. I have a gun in case some meth head or whoever feels like barging into my house to threaten me or steal from me. > I’m not a danger to anyone unless they invade my home and I don’t care if they have no intention of hurting me. They aren’t allowed to steal my plasma tv either. This makes it sound like you value your plasma TV over some miscreant’s life. It’s not an unusual stance, but it doesn’t inspire confidence in your argument that you’re not a danger to anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-needs-guns-for-anything-anyway/531659/53 "2010-03-08T03:30:29Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > This makes it sound like you value your plasma TV over some miscreant’s life. It’s not an unusual stance, but it doesn’t inspire confidence in your argument that you’re not a danger to anyone. I don’t value my plasma TV over the miscreants life. However, I value **my** safety over the miscreants life, and by invading my home you’ve violated my safety. I don’t know your intentions when you break into my home. I do know that you’ve violated my, and societies, trust to the point where you’re actively engaging in an activity which potentially threatens my personal safety. ETA: I wont go out looking for someone in my house, but if you come into my room I will not wait to determine whether you are or are not a threat, I will assume you are by the very fact that you broke into an occupied house and obviously weren’t satisfied with the belongings in the common areas, and you’re venturing into my bedroom. And, if I had children, I can assure you that my reaction would be different, I would do whatever it took to prevent the nearest possibility of harm from coming to them. If that involved going into the common areas and shooting someone, because I couldn’t protect them from my room, than that’s what I’d do. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-needs-guns-for-anything-anyway/531659/54 "2010-03-08T03:33:56Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > This makes it sound like you value your plasma TV over some miscreant’s life. It’s not an unusual stance, but it doesn’t inspire confidence in your argument that you’re not a danger to anyone. I’d say that the danger is limited to the miscreant who chose to break into the house. Unless they announce their intentions upon breaking into the house, one must assume the worst. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-needs-guns-for-anything-anyway/531659/55 "2010-03-08T03:36:23Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > I don’t value my plasma TV over the miscreants life. > > However, I value **my** safety over the miscreants life, and by invading my home you’ve violated my safety. I don’t know your intentions when you break into my home. I do know that you’ve violated my, and societies, trust to the point where you’re actively engaging in an activity which potentially threatens my personal safety. > > ETA: I wont go out looking for someone in my house, but if you come into my room I will not wait to determine whether you are or are not a threat, I will assume you are by the very fact that you broke into an occupied house and obviously weren’t satisfied with the belongings in the common areas, and you’re venturing into my bedroom. > > And, if I had children, I can assure you that my reaction would be different, I would do whatever it took to prevent the nearest possibility of harm from coming to them. If that involved going into the common areas and shooting someone, because I couldn’t protect them from my room, than that’s what I’d do. This is how I feel as well. If I could push a button and instantly kill any unauthorized person in my home, I would buy that button and push it if need be. A button like that does not exist AFAIK, so I have a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-needs-guns-for-anything-anyway/531659/56 "2010-03-08T03:43:44Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > I don’t value my plasma TV over the miscreants life. > > However, I value **my** safety over the miscreants life, and by invading my home you’ve violated my safety. I don’t know your intentions when you break into my home. I do know that you’ve violated my, and societies, trust to the point where you’re actively engaging in an activity which potentially threatens my personal safety. To be clear, I believe that there exist responsible gunowners who value human life over human property. I do not know what **Todderbob** ’s firearm training or procedures are, so I can’t tell whether he has an unacceptably itchy trigger finger, from the viewpoint of Judeo-Christian-Islamic-Buddhist-Hindu morality. I will say that if he believes that the presence of an unexpected visitor in his household makes shooting a gun advisable, then he is courting tragedy. > [@Rand Rover](#): > > If I could push a button and instantly kill any unauthorized person in my home, I would buy that button and push it if need be. A button like that does not exist AFAIK, so I have a gun. Ok, so when you weigh trespass against a human life, you choose to extinguish the human life. That goes beyond what **gravitycrash** said. I’m aware that there are people like you in the world. There are few violent people who can’t point to justifications that lack empirical grounding. All I request is that you obey the law. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-needs-guns-for-anything-anyway/531659/57 "2010-03-08T03:56:46Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > The guy got out, he was probably 5’1 5’1? You’re afraid of Michael J. Fox? > [@Cisco](#): > > But what was the hand gun for? Probably because he’s only 5’1. It sounds like he was open carrying, which many believe is far more of a deterrent than concealed carry. > [@Cisco](#): > > Maybe I want hand guns outlawed. Because nobody could commit crimes with a rifle or shotgun. And long guns can’t be carried concealed in a vehicle or under a long coat. Or carried openly in the woods or at a Presidential appearance. There are 200+million guns in this country. All the regulation and bans won’t do anything to make anyone any safer. This country was past the point of no return by the early 19th century. We are a gun loving people. My advice is to accept that, deal with it, get over it, and move on to some other boogeyman to be afraid of. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-needs-guns-for-anything-anyway/531659/58 "2010-03-08T03:57:27Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Ok, so when you weigh trespass against a human life, you choose to extinguish the human life. That goes beyond what **gravitycrash** said. I’m aware that there are people like you in the world. There are few violent people who can’t point to justifications that lack empirical grounding. All I request is that you obey the law. It’s not **trespassing** , it’s **breaking and entering**. There’s a world of difference. One is wandering into a section of woods you thought was yours and was your neighbors, the other is taking a rock, smashing in a window and coming into my fucking house. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-needs-guns-for-anything-anyway/531659/59 "2010-03-08T03:58:52Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Ok, so when you weigh trespass against a human life, you choose to extinguish the human life. Yes, if the trespass is in my house while I am home. > [@](#): > > I’m aware that there are people like you in the world. People like me, eh? You mean people that value their own lives and the lives of their family over the life of someone that breaks into their house? I would suspect that people like me are the majority. > [@](#): > > There are few violent people who can’t point to justifications that lack empirical grounding. Huh? > [@](#): > > All I request is that you obey the law. I do. Thanks for your concern. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-needs-guns-for-anything-anyway/531659/60 "2010-03-08T04:04:23Z")
Quoth **Rand Rover** : > [@](#): > > You are wrong. I abhor unjustified coercion and force. If someone tries to harm me or my family, then I am justified in killing him/her. Though, when it’s the government exerting the force, you never seem to stop to ask whether it’s justified, just jumping straight to the conclusion that all force is bad. As to open carrying or displaying of a gun as a deterrent, it can have two effects. On the one hand, it can convince a criminal that they should just pass you by, but on the other hand, if the criminal is for some reason committed, it can convince them that they need to kill you rather than just roughing you up a bit. Sure, you’ll hear plenty of anecdotes from the first category, but there’s a bit of a selection effect there: The folks who get killed because they were openly carrying don’t tell stories about it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-needs-guns-for-anything-anyway/531659.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-needs-guns-for-anything-anyway/531659.md?page=4)