# Who or what is Curious George? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 9, 2006, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-or-what-is-curious-george/343642 "2006-02-09T02:44:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-or-what-is-curious-george/343642/41 "2006-02-10T01:04:46Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > IIRC you’re an ornithologist, not a primatologist . . . Who needs ornithologists anyway? **Everybody** knows about the bird! [end of the day, feeling punchy] ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-or-what-is-curious-george/343642/42 "2006-02-10T01:14:38Z")
So am I to conclude from the OP’s location that _Curious George_ books are unknown in Australia? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-or-what-is-curious-george/343642/43 "2006-02-10T01:27:02Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > IIRC you’re an ornithologist, not a primatologist, but even so, would you use the word ‘monkey’ that way in a professional context? Of course not. I’m talking about making a distinction between technical and non-technical contexts. I’d use it that way in casual conversation, not in a professional context. But it’s perfectly OK for a word to have both technical and non-technical usages. And what we are discussing here is use in a children’s book. [quote] The fact that their common names evolved to include the word ape IMO underscores the fact that apes and monkeys are fundamentally different, or else they we’d be saying Barbary or Celebes _monkey_. I don’t think their common names “evolved” to include the word “ape” - that was their original name. Nowadays, if one wants to be technical, they are referred to as Barbary Macaque and Celebes Macaque. As far as I know, the non-technical sense of “ape” to mean “any tailless non-human higher primate” preceded the technical one. > [@](#): > > To be completely honest, it must be mentioned that over the last forty years or so there has been a growing consensus among specialists that the ape clade must also include humans, so the notion of apes as a _taxonomic_ group including the gibbon, orangutan, chimpanzee and gorilla, but excluding humans, is pretty well obsolete. I don’t expect everyday speech to change so that humans are conceptually included as apes; yet I still just can’t see calling a monkey an ape or vice versa. I’m not a professional in the field, as most here probably know, but I’ve spent a lifetime reading and learning whatever I can about it. Perhaps I’ve been looking at primates for so long I’m more aware of the differences at a subsconcious level. Actually, cladistically the term "monkey’ doesn’t have any real technical meaning either. The Old World Monkeys are considered to be more closely related to apes and humans (all these groups today being included in the Catarrhini) than they are to the New World Monkeys (Platyrrhini). To a cladist, if you wanted to use the term “monkey” in a technical sense you would have to refer to apes and humans as monkeys as well. Basically, I don’t sweat too much about common names. If you want to be technically correct, use the scientific terminology. It’s wasted effort trying to make the general public use common names in the proper technical sense (even if there is one.) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-or-what-is-curious-george/343642/44 "2006-02-10T01:30:22Z")
Sorry. Fixed coding: > [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > The fact that their common names evolved to include the word ape IMO underscores the fact that apes and monkeys are fundamentally different, or else they we’d be saying Barbary or Celebes _monkey_. I don’t think their common names “evolved” to include the word “ape” - that was their original name. Nowadays, if one wants to be technical, they are referred to as Barbary Macaque and Celebes Macaque. As far as I know, the non-technical sense of “ape” to mean “any tailless non-human higher primate” preceded the technical one. > [@](#): > > To be completely honest, it must be mentioned that over the last forty years or so there has been a growing consensus among specialists that the ape clade must also include humans, so the notion of apes as a taxonomic group including the gibbon, orangutan, chimpanzee and gorilla, but excluding humans, is pretty well obsolete. I don’t expect everyday speech to change so that humans are conceptually included as apes; yet I still just can’t see calling a monkey an ape or vice versa. I’m not a professional in the field, as most here probably know, but I’ve spent a lifetime reading and learning whatever I can about it. Perhaps I’ve been looking at primates for so long I’m more aware of the differences at a subsconcious level. Actually, cladistically the term "monkey’ doesn’t have any real technical meaning either. The Old World Monkeys are considered to be more closely related to apes and humans (all these groups today being included in the Catarrhini) than they are to the New World Monkeys (Platyrrhini). To a cladist, if you wanted to use the term “monkey” in a technical sense you would have to refer to apes and humans as monkeys as well. Basically, I don’t sweat too much about common names. If you want to be technically correct, use the scientific terminology. It’s wasted effort trying to make the general public use common names in the proper technical sense (even if there is one.) ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-or-what-is-curious-george/343642/45 "2006-02-10T01:37:20Z")
> [@Laughing Lagomorph](#): > > So am I to conclude from the OP’s location that _Curious George_ books are unknown in Australia? Well, they’re unknown to _me_. I don’t know about Australia in general. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-or-what-is-curious-george/343642/46 "2006-02-10T01:57:58Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > As far as I know, the non-technical sense of “ape” to mean “any tailless non-human higher primate” preceded the technical one. Checking, it seems as if “ape” is derived from the Anglo-Saxan _apa._ This implies that the original “ape” was in fact the Barbary Ape, since none of the true apes would have been known speakers of Anglo-Saxon. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-or-what-is-curious-george/343642/47 "2006-02-10T01:59:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Who needs ornithologists anyway? **Everybody** knows about the bird! > > [end of the day, feeling punchy] Well **I** thought it was funny. Boppa oo mau-mau; boppa: 'a mau-mau. ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-or-what-is-curious-george/343642/48 "2006-02-10T02:02:19Z")
> [@Cunctator](#): > > Well, they’re unknown to _me_. I don’t know about Australia in general. I would almost call them pervasive in America. I’ve known the book series and character since I was a kid, probably 1969 or so. They are a staple in kid’s libraries everywhere, teachers and parents read them to kids routinely. There is even children’s bookstore in Harvard Square outside Boston called [Curious George goes to Wordsworth](http://www.curiousg.com/) (Wordsworth being a grownups bookstore that has since gone out of business, but George’s outpost is still going strong). I never really thought about it but I would have assumed the character was at least somewhat known in all English speaking countries. ---
**Author:** ![Rufus\_Xavier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@Rufus\_Xavier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rufus_Xavier)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-or-what-is-curious-george/343642/49 "2006-02-10T02:09:23Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > Many Americans have compared our president to Curious George, and Dick Cheney to The Man in the Yellow Hat. Including me, in the long-ago monkey haiku thread: > **[Make up some Monkey Haikus!](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=275469)** > > My friend Gabi is compiling an anthology of haikus about monkeys. I call upon you, oh clever members of the Dope, to be on your best creative behavior! To get the ball rolling, here’s the one I did: look at the monkeys see bananas in the breeze ... > [@Rufus Xavier](#): > > Curious George snatched > the book and scampered away > towards the White House > > “Come back! Come back!” cried > the man in the yellow hat > starting to pursue > > “They haven’t finished > swearing you in!” yelled Cheney, > but George paid no mind ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-or-what-is-curious-george/343642/50 "2006-02-10T02:25:48Z")
Further checking of _Topsell’s History of Beasts_ (1607), one of the first bestiaries in English, shows that Topsell used “ape” to refer to both tailless and tailed monkeys (true apes being either unknown or sem-mythical at the time). His first account in the book is of “The Ape;” the illustration seems to me to resemble a Barbary Ape. Topsell says, among other things: > [@](#): > > There are divers kinds of apes. Some are called _cercopitheci, monkeys, chaerogitheci, hog apes, cepi, callitrices, marmosets, cynocephali, satyrs,_ and _sphinxes_. They are not all alike. Some resemble men one way, and some another. > [@](#): > > Apes (the kind with tails) are heavy and sorrowful when the moon is in the wane, but they leap and rejoice at the change. A recent parody of Curious George is [Clueless George Goes to War](http://cluelessgeorgegoestowar.com/) ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-or-what-is-curious-george/343642/51 "2006-02-10T03:40:38Z")
> [@Laughing Lagomorph](#): > > There is even children’s bookstore in Harvard Square outside Boston called [Curious George goes to Wordsworth](http://www.curiousg.com/) (Wordsworth being a grownups bookstore that has since gone out of business, but George’s outpost is still going strong). Well, the city of Cambridge has always been proud of being the home of H. A. and Margaret Rey, the creators of Curious George. Of course, with Margaret having died in 1996 and Julia Child just a couple years ago, the only local iconic celebrities left are the Car Talk guys. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-or-what-is-curious-george/343642/52 "2006-02-10T03:42:42Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > Why? Because it says so in the dictionary? I’m surprised to see you simply accepting a dictionary’s authority on what’s okay and what’s not okay to say. Why does it become acceptable the minute it’s enshrined in a heavy book by a lexicographer? No: as you well know, I’m not especially interested in telling someone that the way they use a word is incorrect. However, when folks decide to make a prescriptivist judgment, they need to make sure that the folks prescriptivists turn to as authorities–i.e., lexicographers–agree with them. Descriptivists don’t tell someone they’re using a word incorrectly (with the standard disclaimers). Prescriptivists rely on lexicographers to tell them what’s right and what’s not. I was pointing out that lexicographers allow monkey and ape to be used interchangeably, so prescriptivists ought not object to it any more than I do. Thanks, **Colibri** , for putting it very eloquently! I’ll just add that scientists for the most part long ago gave up on laying claim to common word usages: that’s what Linnaeus was all about when he set up Latin nomenclature. If you want to tell me what specific creatures do or do not belong in genus Pan, I’ll respect that; but “monkey” and “ape” are not words that scientists ought to lay claim to, given the superiority of Latin nomenclature for their purpose. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-or-what-is-curious-george/343642/53 "2006-02-10T04:00:01Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Then there were the Curious George titles we made up when I worked at a library. > > Curious George Gets Hit By A Truck. > Curious George Visits a House of Ill Repute. > Curious George Eats Some Bad Oysters. > Curious George Gives the Man in the Yellow Hat a Social Disease. > > Perhaps we had too much time on our hands. I do remember an actual Curious George book where he broke his legs, and the picture showed him with his legs all crooked and messed up. I still get the shivers thinking about that. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-or-what-is-curious-george/343642/54 "2006-02-10T05:52:15Z")
> [@Laughing Lagomorph](#): > > I never really thought about it but I would have assumed the character was at least somewhat known in all English speaking countries. I have a young child, who we take to libraries and bookshops regularly - never seen a ‘Curious George’. Maybe you guys dont get ‘Blinky Bill’ or ‘Snugglepot and Cuddlepie’ or ‘The Magic Pudding’. Antechinus, Australia ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-or-what-is-curious-george/343642/55 "2006-02-10T17:06:07Z")
\ This is about a series of books and a movie, so let’s not monkey around any more and send it to Cafe Society. \ ---
**Author:** ![mobo85](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mobo85](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mobo85)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-or-what-is-curious-george/343642/56 "2006-02-10T17:25:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > In this CS thread on inappropriate children’s books – [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=332600](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=332600) – I posted, _Curious George and the Simian Immunodeficiency Virus._ See also [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=308215](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=308215). There was a similar gag in an episode of _The Simpsons_- in a flashback regarding downbeat Bart’s crappy first day of school, Marge attempts to cheer him up by suggesting he read a book- _Curious George and the Ebola Virus_. > [@What Exit?](#): > > On a sad note one of the Co-Creators Alan Shalleck was found dead outside his home, and police were treating the death as a possible homicide Shalleck’s role in the _Curious George_ creation has been exaggerated. The Curious George character was created by H.A. and Margret Rey in 1941. The Reys, who were Jewish, had escaped Nazi France and moved to New York City, bringing the manuscripts of a number of books, _Curious George_ being one of them. The Reys wrote seven books in total about Curious George, which were published by Houghton Mifflin (who owns the rights to the Curious George character). H.A. died in 1977. Around this time, Margret worked with animator Allan Shalleck to create a series of new animated Curious George adventures which aired on the Disney Channel (I used to watch these as a kid. I can still remember the theme…“Curious George, the curious little monkey…”) Around 24 or so of these animated shorts were adapted into storybooks published by Houghton Mifflin in the late 1980s. Margret died in 1996, and Shalleck was found dead outside his house earlier this week. You can learn more about George and the Reys at Houghton Mifflin’s official [Curious George website.](http://www.houghtonmifflinbooks.com/features/cgsite/curiousaboutgeorge.shtml) > [@Thudlow Boink](#): > > Hmm. In your link, Curious George is referred to both as a chimp and as a monkey, though technically these are two different things. Does anyone have the straight dope on exactly what kind of critter George is? The text of the books refers to George as a monkey. However, H.A.'s illustrations show him without a tail. The producers of the film actually considered giving George a tail, but they decided not to, keeping in the style of the original illustrations. ---
**Author:** ![NicePete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee7513/32.png) [@NicePete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NicePete)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-or-what-is-curious-george/343642/57 "2006-02-10T17:52:12Z")
[Curious George and the High-Tension Wire](http://triggur.org/storytime/george/) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-or-what-is-curious-george/343642/58 "2006-02-10T18:57:07Z")
So, is Curious George the same species as Goofy? ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-or-what-is-curious-george/343642/59 "2006-02-10T20:18:47Z")
> [@antechinus](#): > > I have a young child, who we take to libraries and bookshops regularly - never seen a ‘Curious George’. > > Maybe you guys dont get ‘Blinky Bill’ or ‘Snugglepot and Cuddlepie’ or ‘The Magic Pudding’. > > Antechinus, Australia Yeah? We have them here in NZ. ---
**Author:** ![mobo85](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mobo85](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mobo85)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2006, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-or-what-is-curious-george/343642/60 "2006-02-11T00:20:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So, is Curious George the same species as Goofy? Curious George is a dog? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-or-what-is-curious-george/343642.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-or-what-is-curious-george/343642.md?page=4)