# Who Photographed the Abuse? (and other questions) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 14, 2004, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-photographed-the-abuse-and-other-questions/245136 "2004-05-14T16:46:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-photographed-the-abuse-and-other-questions/245136/1 "2004-05-14T16:46:19Z")
I’m puzzled about various aspects of the abuse scandal in Iraq. First off, who took the pictures? Aside from the obvious savagery involved, the stupidity of people to take pictures of themselves breaking the law is mind-boggling. I recall thinking the same thing when those teenagers were shooting people on the street with pellet guns a few years back. Next, if they were so bold as to photograph the acts, it makes me think that they had no fear of repercussions. It reinforces my feeling that the higher-ups were completely in the know and encouraged this behavior. Do you think they’ll throw the book at the accused offenders? My gut feeling is that they’ll make examples of the lot of them and give them very long sentences. But some people say they think they’ll get off with reprimands. What’s your take? Finally, the apparent lack of leadership in the military, as well as the calibur of people we’re seeing in sensitive areas, makes me question our abilities should we ever have to go up against a more formidable force. How about you? ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-photographed-the-abuse-and-other-questions/245136/2 "2004-05-14T17:38:36Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > the stupidity of people to take pictures of themselves breaking the law is mind-boggling. I recall thinking the same thing when those teenagers were shooting people on the street with pellet guns a few years back. The story as I have heard it is that at least some of them were told the photos were propaganda pieces for psychological ops. I’m not exactly sure how they could be used for such purposes, but if a NCO(Non-Comissioned Officer) said these kind of humiliations and such would be injurous to the psyche and make interrogation easier then people who would not normally do these sorts of things would have second thoughts. Review [the Milgram Experiment](http://www.new-life.net/milgram.htm) for an example of how people will behave if they think an authority figure has a good reason to ask them to do something they would never do on their own. > [@Kalhoun](#): > > Next, if they were so bold as to photograph the acts, it makes me think that they had no fear of repercussions. It reinforces my feeling that the higher-ups were completely in the know and encouraged this behavior. Depends on your definition of “higher up”. I think at the immediate higher up level, there was both knowledge and encouragement. At the next level up there was probably knowledge but less active encouragement, more “turning a blind eye” level stuff. At the highest levels there was probably a good bit of ignorance as well as turning of blind eyes. The middle levels are the most inexcusable IMHO because oversight is their job. > [@Kalhoun](#): > > Finally, the apparent lack of leadership in the military, as well as the calibur of people we’re seeing in sensitive areas, makes me question our abilities should we ever have to go up against a more formidable force. How about you? Depends on the type of conflict. As has been noted over and over, the armed forces are not policeman. They are very, very good at their job, which is to win battles. The entire apparatus is unsuited for police work. IMHO it should have been turned over to the State Department once major combat was done and Baghdad taken. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-photographed-the-abuse-and-other-questions/245136/3 "2004-05-14T17:59:16Z")
I had heard that other soldiers, disgusted at the abuse, were the ones who took the pictures and turned them over to the authorities. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-photographed-the-abuse-and-other-questions/245136/4 "2004-05-14T18:15:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Nine soldiers are now facing court martial, with the first case against Specialist Jeremy Sivits due to be heard in Baghdad next week. I understand that Sivits also took at least some of the photographs. ---
**Author:** ![Eats\_Crayons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Eats\_Crayons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eats_Crayons)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-photographed-the-abuse-and-other-questions/245136/5 "2004-05-14T18:37:19Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Do you think they’ll throw the book at the accused offenders? My gut feeling is that they’ll make examples of the lot of them and give them very long sentences. But some people say they think they’ll get off with reprimands. What’s your take? It’s possible that _some_ may get some leniency if systemic failures can be proven or reasonably demonstrated by the defense. For example, a recent [New York Times report](http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1084054209009&call_pageid=1045739058633&col=1045739057805) (link goes to the Toronto Star’s copy of the story) goes into details of some of the general and apalling chaos of the prison’s administration. I cannot fathom being in those conditions and not having them deteriorate into some kind of scene out of _Lord of the Flies_. In particular they are stunningly understaffed – the story says that typically, a military police brigade should be in charge of 4,000 prisoners. At Abu Ghraib a single battalion (1/3 as big as a brigade) was handling up to 7,000. Many of them had only a bit of training from “training camp” and had no dea how to deal with riots. At times temperatures were up to 120 (F), there would be 6 guards on a shift to watch over 700 prisoners at a time, insurgents outside the prison were launching crap at them regularly (small arms fire, grenades, mortars etc.) So on one hand, you have total jerks like Charles Graner who is a corrections officer in civilian life and certianly should have known better. On the other hand, you also have many reservists who were completely overwhelmed and understaffed, never really trained for the prison system, in a horrendoulsy chaotic environment, suffering from terrible morale, and then asked to “set the conditions” for interrogations by mistreating (within legal limits) their charges. It is likely that _some_ will be dishonorably discharged, or less-than-honorably discharged but will not face prison time if it can be demonstrated that the problem had more to do with soldiers being overwhelmed and let down by the system (a lot of people would go savage in such extentenuating circumstances). Others will be in much, much deeper doo-doo. Like the ones that _did_ have proper training, knew better, and _still_ went on to commit acts of barbary. It’s going to be very, very messy to sort through it case-by-case. Unimaginable! ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-photographed-the-abuse-and-other-questions/245136/6 "2004-05-14T18:54:22Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > The story as I have heard it is that at least some of them were told the photos were propaganda pieces for psychological ops. I’m not exactly sure how they could be used for such purposes, but if a NCO(Non-Comissioned Officer) said these kind of humiliations and such would be injurous to the psyche and make interrogation easier then people who would not normally do these sorts of things would have second thoughts. Review [url=“[http://www.new-life.net/milgram.htm](http://www.new-life.net/milgram.htm)”] > > Enjoy, > Steven Thanks for the link. I had heard of that study before. Pretty scary what the human psyche is capable of. I’d like to think I’d be able to think coherently and not participate in something like that, but it certainly makes you wonder.