# Who preceded the Nazis as the cliched embodiment of evil? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 31, 2006, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882 "2006-05-31T15:20:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/21 "2006-05-31T19:38:10Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Anyway, what have the Romans ever done for us? [ul][li]Sanitation,[/li][li]medicine, [/li][li]education, [/li][li]irrigation, [/li][li]public health,[/li][li]roads,[/li][li]a freshwater system,[/li][li]baths, and[/li][li]public order.[/li][/ul] But aside from that, not much. My vote for 19th century Europe would be Napoleon and the Frenchies. Going back a bit further, the Spanish Inquisition was pretty unexpected, too. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/22 "2006-05-31T19:40:31Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > even before the Nazis, the Germans were good villains. Tarzan actually fights the Germans in books Burroughs wrote at the time of WWI There is a scene in one of the _Lost World_ novels where the entire crew of the German sub finds an Englishman asleep and manages to overpower him. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2006, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/23 "2006-06-01T14:05:13Z")
> [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > [ul][li]Sanitation,[/li][li]medicine, [/li][li]education, [/li][li]irrigation, [/li][li]public health,[/li][li]roads,[/li][li]a freshwater system,[/li][li]baths, and[/li][li]public order.[/li][/ul] > But aside from that, not much. > > Stranger I WAS going to say, but what have they done for us lately. Also, let us remember the Turks. I believe “the Arabs” oculd have worked as well. hh ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2006, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/24 "2006-06-01T14:24:13Z")
White Slavers ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2006, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/25 "2006-06-01T14:26:48Z")
Anarchists ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2006, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/26 "2006-06-01T14:29:46Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > That was because of an idiotic remark by Kaiser Wilhelm to his troops. Somthing about, “being as feared as the Huns”. I think this sets the stage. The German’s, who were getting playful and LOOKING to be thought of as terrifying conquerors were thinking they needed to be perceived as ‘hun-like’ to be properly scary. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2006, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/27 "2006-06-01T15:01:57Z")
Cossacks. Irish immigrants in the US. Injuns (the native american kind.) ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2006, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/28 "2006-06-01T15:12:14Z")
Communists have been used as villains since the days of Marx. All union and progressive causes were tainted by the use of communist as a smear against them. Before WWI there was a huge genre of invasion books in England, using the Germans or even the French as invaders across the Channel. For the hundred years before that, Napoleon was the symbol of invasion across all Europe outside of France. For at least 50 years after the Revolution, the British were the symbol of all that was evil in much of America. The Pope may have been used earlier as a joke, but Catholics were hated and feared for hundreds of years after the Reformation across Protestant Europe. Barbarians of all sorts were symbols of devastation after the fall of Rome. Not just Huns, but Goths, Vikings, and others. Western Civ is one long roster of demonizing the enemy. The Greeks thought everyone else were barbarians. That and not Plato is our real heritage. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2006, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/29 "2006-06-01T15:16:43Z")
The German Kaiser was pretty reviled, although he wasn’t seen quite as evil as Hitler, but more of an evil, incompetant bufoon. What about Otto von Bismarck? He was pretty nasty. ---
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2006, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/30 "2006-06-01T15:27:06Z")
> [@chrisk](#): > > As a slight hijack… did people REALIZE around 1933 that the Nazis would be referred to as a symbol of evil, authoritarianism, and tyranny for a long time?? If not… any idea when this started to sink in?? Very roughly speaking, the Night of The Long Knives in 1934 put many people on alert, so to say, and Kristallnacht in 1938 removed any doubt about where things were headed. The invasion of Poland soon followed in 1939. People trickled out of Germany all through the '30s. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2006, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/31 "2006-06-01T15:42:12Z")
Hmm… shortly before, say, 1933, I’d say that the Red threat was the biggest international boogeyman. Prior to that, and continuing for much of the same time, was the Yellow threat that **CalMeacham** already mentioned. Other epitomes of omnipotent evil would be (in no particular order) The Okrahna (The secret police of the Czars, and the people who originally faked up The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.) The Spanish Inquisition The Jesuits The Knights Templar The Huns The Mongols The Goths ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2006, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/32 "2006-06-01T15:43:17Z")
Don’t forget the Jesuits. Anyone who can steal days is pretty fearsome. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2006, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/33 "2006-06-01T15:47:33Z")
American Negroes. Especially if white women were involved. :: Looking around. :: Hey, where they at, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2006, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/34 "2006-06-01T15:52:24Z")
OP here. Were any of these groups or individuals actually used (in literature, say) as examples of evil authority? IOW, did the whole Godwin’s Law meme begin with the Nazis? Did people employ any handy embodiment of evil that sprang to mind, or were any of these in actual use generally? ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2006, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/35 "2006-06-01T16:38:09Z")
Following the “Germanic babbarians as embodiment of evil” line, if someone did a lot of property damage, he would be called a Vandal. I can rememeber a character in a movie calling a young hoodlum a “Visigoth.” Perhaps this was used, too. Aside from that, I can’t think of anyone who would be used as a to undermine someone’s argument through comparison, with the possible exception of George III in the Federal Era. Most of the others were either disorganized hordes, or else had workings supposedly so secret that no one knew what they really did. I guess the Terror in France would be a government that would be characterized by measures that were antidemocratic, or betrayed individual liberty. “That’s just the sirt of thing Robespierre wanted to do.” Maybe? ---
**Author:** ![Fish\_Cheer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fish_cheer/32/17179_2.png) [@Fish\_Cheer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish_Cheer)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2006, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/36 "2006-06-01T16:56:44Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > What about Otto von Bismarck? He was pretty nasty. Actually, I don’t think so. Can you provide a cite? In his day, I doubt that he was seen much different than other aristocratic statesmen in Europe. Don’t get him mixed up with that Kaiser Wilhelm II / Great War business. ---
**Author:** ![Fish\_Cheer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fish_cheer/32/17179_2.png) [@Fish\_Cheer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish_Cheer)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2006, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/37 "2006-06-01T16:59:00Z")
> [@pseudotriton ruber ruber](#): > > IOW, did the whole Godwin’s Law meme begin with the Nazis? Of course. It was only coined in [1990](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law). ---
**Author:** ![scm1001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@scm1001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scm1001)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2006, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/38 "2006-06-01T17:45:58Z")
mexican immigrants oh wait you mean before ---
**Author:** ![jimmmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@jimmmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimmmy)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2006, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/39 "2006-06-01T23:26:11Z")
When in doubt I would always go Lincoln - or at least offer it to the conversation: As a nation, we began by declaring that “all men are created equal.” We now practically read it, “All men are created equal, except Negroes.” When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read, “All men are created equal except Negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics.” When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some other country where they make no pretense of loving liberty - to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, without the base alloy of hypocrisy _A. Lincoln in an 1855 Letter to J. Speed_ ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2006, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/40 "2006-06-02T00:03:59Z")
No love\* for the Turks in this thread? They had the better part of Europe quaking in fear for a century or two there. [sub]\*So to speak.[/sub] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882.md?page=3)