# Who preceded the Nazis as the cliched embodiment of evil? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 31, 2006, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882 "2006-05-31T15:20:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Jet\_Jaguar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jet_jaguar/32/3562_2.png) [@Jet\_Jaguar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jet_Jaguar)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2006, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/41 "2006-06-02T00:30:49Z")
I’ve been reading a lot of 19th-century “travel/adventure” type literature lately, and savage natives seem to be a fairly stock villain. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2006, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/42 "2006-06-02T01:51:01Z")
> [@RickG](#): > > The Jews? ;j > > -Rick This was probably taken as sort of a joke by most people, and forgotten, but I think this answer is the winner. The Jews were indeed the embodiment of evil in most of Europe for the longest time - to the point of being blamed for all kinds of ridiculous things, “blood libels,” well poisoning, not to mention economic trouble, and perpetually hated as Christ-killers. Whether or not they actually were evil is beside the point - they were universally reviled. Add to this the “protocols of the elders of zion” bullshit and the common perception that the Jews were in control behind the scenes, and the “authority” stipulation of the OP is fulfilled as well. I don’t think any of the other answers given come as close to the mark as the Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2006, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/43 "2006-06-02T02:05:48Z")
I was going to say Turks. Their starring role as bogeyman/embodiment of evil, from western Europe’s point of view, came during the 16th and 17th centuries when the Ottoman Empire was already big and kept on expanding. ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2006, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/44 "2006-06-02T02:08:32Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > No love\* for the Turks in this thread? They had the better part of Europe quaking in fear for a century or two there. And the Moors had their back, or was it vice versa? Definitely a vice though. ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2006, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/45 "2006-06-02T02:13:30Z")
> [@Argent Towers](#): > > This was probably taken as sort of a joke by most people, and forgotten, but I think this answer is the winner. The Jews were indeed the embodiment of evil in most of Europe for the longest time - to the point of being blamed for all kinds of ridiculous things, “blood libels,” well poisoning, not to mention economic trouble, and perpetually hated as Christ-killers. …\… I don’t think any of the other answers given come as close to the mark as the Jews. Sorry to double post, but overlooked this. This is sadly true as well. I don’t believe the general public had any problems with the portrayal of Shylock and similar characters until after WWII, and too many still don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2006, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/46 "2006-06-02T02:49:05Z")
> [@jimmmy](#): > > When in doubt I would always go Lincoln - or at least offer it to the conversation: > > As a nation, we began by declaring that “all men are created equal.” We now practically read it, “All men are created equal, except Negroes.” When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read, “All men are created equal except Negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics.” When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some other country where they make no pretense of loving liberty - to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, without the base alloy of hypocrisy > > _A. Lincoln in an 1855 Letter to J. Speed_ To me, that doesn’t read so much as “I’m a black-hating autocrat-wannabe” as “look at the sorry state of our country, where we ignore the first principle of its founding! At least in Russia they’re not hypocrits–they outright state that men aren’t all equal in their society.” ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2006, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/47 "2006-06-02T08:41:08Z")
> [@Speaker for the Dead](#): > > To me, that doesn’t read so much as “I’m a black-hating autocrat-wannabe” as “look at the sorry state of our country, where we ignore the first principle of its founding! At least in Russia they’re not hypocrits–they outright state that men aren’t all equal in their society.” Uh, I think that’s the point. The Russkies bite, and everyone knows they bite. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2006, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/48 "2006-06-02T08:58:52Z")
For some it was Yankees. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Slant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Mr.Slant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Slant)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2006, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/49 "2006-06-02T11:39:43Z")
I heard the Dutch were pretty danged evil… ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2006, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/50 "2006-06-02T11:43:58Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > For some it was Yankees. It always comes back to that damned Steinbrenner and his Evil Empire, don’t it? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2006, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/51 "2006-06-02T12:07:38Z")
As I wrote of anbove, the **Yellow Peril** : [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow\_Peril](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Peril) ---
**Author:** ![jimmmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@jimmmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimmmy)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2006, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/52 "2006-06-02T12:30:03Z")
> [@pseudotriton ruber ruber](#): > > Uh, I think that’s the point. The Russkies bite, and everyone knows they bite. Yeah exactly. The top American political thinker of the age (lets not quibble and say “one of the top”) was writing and dramatically reaching for an obvious place of despotism to make his point - a place everyone would readily recognize as despotic and making no pretense about it and reaching for that place in all his world he comes up with … Russia Again not dismissing the other mentions on this thread – good ideas – just maybe this should be part of the conversation ina Euro-Centric 19th century context. Let me ask this given that: \*\*Is there \*\* really a GQ answer here? Won’t the answer be different for different people in different places at different times? I bet sometimes it was the Romans, Vikings, Muslims, and Indians etc. Answer depends on when/who/where ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2006, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/53 "2006-06-02T13:47:35Z")
Well, the answer could be–and it seems as if it is-- “No one. There WAS no universal cliched embodiment of tyrannical authoritarian evil before the Nazis assumed that role,” which is kinda what I was thinking. The interesting part to me is that the world got along for such a long time without one of the glues of western culture–the meme that has the Nazis fillingl that much-needed rhetorical role. I mean if you said to your wife in the 1860s “Who are you, the czar of freaking Russia?” she might get you if she were geopolitically aware, but any dummy will get you now if you ask “who are you, Hitler?” even dummies born long after 1945. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2006, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/54 "2006-06-02T15:39:38Z")
> [@scm1001](#): > > mexican immigrants > > oh wait you mean before before what? The Alamo? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Scrivener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@The\_Scrivener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Scrivener)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2006, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/55 "2006-06-02T19:48:22Z")
I have two caveats against the winning answer to the OP being the Jews: 1) they haven’t been a politically unified, organized, aggressive regional military power since the days of antiquity (even during the times of the worst European anti-Semitism, nobody feared that the Jews would defeat the Pope or the Hapsburgs, etc.); 2) has there ever been a time when all of the powerful Western and Near Eastern empires been anti-Semitic at the same time? Haven’t there always been escape valves allowing some refuge from the worst persecutions? There have always been elements of _philo_-Semitism in the West and notable instances of religious tolerance of Jews in the Arab, Moorish, and Ottoman worlds, and the whole Semitism question has generally been met with a big shrug in much of the Far East. Even during the Holocaust, anti-Semitic attitudes weren’t shared by all European Christians, as many brave individuals sheltered Jews; Jews also found refuge in Macao and under the aegis of a Japanese diplomat, who heroically issued thousands of visas.) OTOH, who has ever had any genuine regard for the Mongols, so long feared for their aggression and reviled for their primitive barbarism (some recent historical revisionism re. Genghis Khan notwithstanding)? The fearsome spectre of Mongol hordes on the rampage has been a historical bogeyman for most of the Eurasian continent for much of the eight hundred years since the death of Genghis Khan, who conquered and slaughtered millions from Korea and China, to Russia, Ukraine, the Caucasus region, Arabia, the Persian empire, the Near Eastern Turkic peoples, the Levant, some Pashtun and Indian lands, and Eastern and Central Europe. Who else has ever posed a mortal threat to so many varied peoples, bringing about such a universal consensus of fear and revulsion amongst these erstwhile enemies? IIRC, when the Mongols laid waste to Kiev, the number of _Rus_ survivors were said to have numbered in the single digits, and it took two or three centuries for Kiev to rebound to a population of 10,000. If the Mongol spectre has been long eclipsed by more recent villains, it’s due to their utter degradation and insularity during the modern era. But back in the day, they were the absolute epitome of rapine and destruction. ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2006, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/56 "2006-06-02T23:13:43Z")
> [@pseudotriton ruber ruber](#): > > Uh, I think that’s the point. The Russkies bite, and everyone knows they bite. Oh, then I think I’ve been whooshed. **jimmmy** tricked me into believing that he was serious about Lincoln being evil. ---
**Author:** ![Fish\_Cheer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fish_cheer/32/17179_2.png) [@Fish\_Cheer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish_Cheer)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2006, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/57 "2006-06-02T23:19:25Z")
> [@Speaker for the Dead](#): > > Oh, then I think I’ve been whooshed. **jimmmy** tricked me into believing that he was serious about Lincoln being evil. The fact that he highlighted the relevant part of his post gave him away somewhat. ---
**Author:** ![Wakinyan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wakinyan/32/352_2.png) [@Wakinyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wakinyan)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2006, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/58 "2006-06-02T23:35:00Z")
The Jews. The anti semitism in Europe one hundred years ago was unbelievable. ---
**Author:** ![Operation\_Ripper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/34f0e0/32.png) [@Operation\_Ripper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Operation_Ripper)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2006, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/59 "2006-06-03T00:39:36Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Yankees. True dat. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2006, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882/60 "2006-06-03T01:41:13Z")
> [@Wakinyan](#): > > The Jews. > > The anti semitism in Europe one hundred years ago was unbelievable. Good subject for your 88th post, Hitler. (Just kidding. Jesus!) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-preceded-the-nazis-as-the-cliched-embodiment-of-evil/358882.md?page=4)