# Who, really, are the "Iraqi Insurgents"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 20, 2004, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-are-the-iraqi-insurgents/275862 "2004-11-20T20:47:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-are-the-iraqi-insurgents/275862/61 "2004-11-26T15:27:59Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Hmm a government which is on course to bring about a democratic government, or insurgents which will pretty much destory the fabric of Iraq if they win. Stark choices and easy answers 🙂 You and I think it’s easy because we hold democracy high. You maybe more than I do. It is not some sort of magic key to happiness. It certainly isn’t viewed as such by a good many people. You may think of it as the most modern (=best) form of government. To the Nazi collaborators it was an outmoded concept, to be replaced with the more modern facism and national socialism. They had the choice between democratic ‘dead-endery’ with the bloodsucking capitalism as its byproduct or communist barbarism or ‘the future’. Stark choices, wrong answers. Neither does democracy seem that holy to Baathist ‘dead-enders’ or to people in favour of a more theocratic form of government or simply those who don’t want a government that is only a democracy in name but actually just a US puppet state. Stark choices, yes. No easy answer ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-are-the-iraqi-insurgents/275862/62 "2004-11-26T15:28:13Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Hmm a government which is on course to bring about a democratic government, or insurgents which will pretty much destory the fabric of Iraq if they win. Stark choices and easy answers 🙂 Either/Or is false logic again. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-are-the-iraqi-insurgents/275862/63 "2004-11-26T15:56:57Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Either/Or is false logic again. expand. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-are-the-iraqi-insurgents/275862/64 "2004-11-26T16:32:05Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > expand. I’m sorry, I’ve already explained and it self-evident. You posit two polar choices out of a plethora of potential options as if the only alternative to the USA/UK occupation is letting the terrorists win. Check out the Fallacy of the Excluded Middle. Your simplistic either/or logic blinds you both to the complexity of the situation, the spectrum of possible solutions and the self-defeating consequences of the policies that follow from your misperceptions. It also leads you to consider as enemies people who want policies based on a nuanced perception of the situation just because they don’t subscribe to your stereotyping of all who oppose the occupation as mad muslim fanatics. We all want a safe, prosperous and democratic Iraq. My understanding of the complex situation leaves me to believe there is not a hope in hell of that happening at the moment due in large part to the ongoing and savage bungling of the occupation. When in a hole, stop bloody digging. Anyway - the USA/UK don’t want a democratic Iraq - as in an Iraq decided by the will of the people expressed through a constitution of their own choosing. They want a secular, USA friendly Iraq first, democracy second. And if they can only have one they’ll take the former. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-are-the-iraqi-insurgents/275862/65 "2004-11-26T16:39:41Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Neither would I, but then again, who says the public always knows whats best for I think I know which one a normal Iraqi would take. Well, as my cites clearly show, you are wrong. Please provide a counter-cite to prove otherwise if you disagree. One that refutes the fact they want us out. And again I point out - this is not either/or. Replacing the occupying powers with a Muslim force under UN control and bankrolled by the USA/UK, along with cancellation of all existing contracts and other commercial laws passed in our own favour is another. There is no way the USA/UK can win the public now and no way a pro USA/UK Govt will emerge from the ashes. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-are-the-iraqi-insurgents/275862/66 "2004-11-26T17:21:16Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > I’m sorry, I’ve already explained and it self-evident. You posit two polar choices out of a plethora of potential options as if the only alternative to the USA/UK occupation is letting the terrorists win. Check out the Fallacy of the Excluded Middle. > > Your simplistic either/or logic blinds you both to the complexity of the situation, the spectrum of possible solutions and the self-defeating consequences of the policies that follow from your misperceptions. > > It also leads you to consider as enemies people who want policies based on a nuanced perception of the situation just because they don’t subscribe to your stereotyping of all who oppose the occupation as mad muslim fanatics. > > We all want a safe, prosperous and democratic Iraq. My understanding of the complex situation leaves me to believe there is not a hope in hell of that happening at the moment due in large part to the ongoing and savage bungling of the occupation. > > When in a hole, stop bloody digging. > > Anyway - the USA/UK don’t want a democratic Iraq - as in an Iraq decided by the will of the people expressed through a constitution of their own choosing. They want a secular, USA friendly Iraq first, democracy second. And if they can only have one they’ll take the former. All I needed was a ‘I couldn’t explain’ not a piece from the Morning Star. And besides, the constitution is written by the elected government. So your theory is wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-are-the-iraqi-insurgents/275862.md?page=3)