# Who Really Discovered America? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 6, 2016, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-discovered-america/773983 "2016-12-06T01:29:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-discovered-america/773983/61 "2016-12-07T20:38:18Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Maybe I’m missing a big intermediate step but my understanding was that the Midwest/Great Lakes region had especially fertile soil explicitly _because_ of glacial action and the glaciers depositing soil as they retreated. That’s due to loess soils. Galciers melt and release bits of ground-up rock. The wind picks it up and deposits it wherever, often places where the glaciers never were. [Here’s a map](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Distribution_of_loess_in_North_America.gif) of where loess soils are distributed in North America. While there’s lots of loess in the Midwest, there’s none at all where the ice-free corridor was. But even if there were some there, it takes time for loess soil to become fertile. Less time than bare rock, but it’s not immediate. Newly deposited loess has no organic constituent, it’s just ground up rock. Likely deficient in nitrogen, a very important plant nutrient. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-discovered-america/773983/62 "2016-12-08T02:15:26Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > [Kverkarhellir Cave](http://www.unreportedheritagenews.com/2010/12/did-scots-visit-iceland-new-research.html) and other sites > > While the evidence may not be incontrovertible, it’s at least pretty suggestive. :smack: I saw “Iceland” in that post and read “The Americas”. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-discovered-america/773983/63 "2016-12-08T02:22:19Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > As for the original discoverers… The general consensus is that people arrived about 12,000 to 13,000 years ago. That was the consensus several decades ago, but that’s well out of date. The present consensus is more like 15,000-16,000 years ago (south of Alaska). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-discovered-america/773983/64 "2016-12-08T03:51:15Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > As for the original discoverers… The general consensus is that people arrived about 12,000 to 13,000 years ago. > [@Colibri](#): > > That was the consensus several decades ago, but that’s well out of date. The present consensus is more like 15,000-16,000 years ago (south of Alaska). Indeed. One of the most famous occupation sites, Mesa Verde has been dated to well over 13,000 years ago. One [recent study](http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0141923) pushes the date back to 16,500 +/- years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-discovered-america/773983/65 "2016-12-08T06:37:22Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > As a result, even if Columbus had failed, fairly soon the land across the sea would be an open secret for most of the European sailing community. Mowat recounts stories of codfish commonly up to 10 feet long, schools so thick you could almost walk on the water. You think any drunk fisherman in a local bar would pass up the opportunity to tell that story to anyone who would listen, back home? You know who was most likely to hear a drunk fisherman in a bar? Other fishermen. ---
**Author:** ![Rama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ccd318/32.png) [@Rama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rama)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-discovered-america/773983/67 "2016-12-08T09:17:35Z")
> [@barronsuse](#): > > Obviously the Indians first discoverd America. Could you be more specific? ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-discovered-america/773983/68 "2016-12-08T13:47:11Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > You know who was most likely to hear a drunk fisherman in a bar? > > Other fishermen. There’s always the persistent stories that Columbus “heard rumors” of a land across the sea - from Basques, from Iceland, from Ireland… ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-discovered-america/773983/69 "2016-12-08T14:31:47Z")
Oscar Wilde supposedly said “America had often been discovered before Columbus, but it had always been hushed up.” The [Center for the Study of the First Americans](http://csfa.tamu.edu/) has lots of information on the _earliest_ discoverers. It’s an interesting & active field of study. Back in high school, I read [They All Discovered America](https://www.amazon.com/discovered-America-Charles-Michael-Boland/dp/B0007E9DMU), wherein is recounted all the stories of pre-Columbian discovery from the the other direction–from the highly suspect to the probable. (This was just before the Norse remains were discovered.) The author’s attitude was–here’s the story, make your own decision. Christopher Columbus hung out the “Open For Business” sign. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-discovered-america/773983/70 "2016-12-08T18:16:26Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > There’s always the persistent stories that Columbus “heard rumors” of a land across the sea - from Basques, from Iceland, from Ireland… If he were following up such rumors, then you’d think he’s have gone north to Iceland or Ireland before going west on his first voyage. Yet he went south to the Canaries on the first leg of his voyage. The thing is, he could have heard rumors of far away lands (usually islands) in any port in Europe. Maps of the period populated the Atlantic with all manner of islands, most of which were false. And they probably knew they were false then as well, except for the few known-for-certain ones (Azores, Canaries). He obviously didn’t use them or any rumors in planning his voyage. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-discovered-america/773983/71 "2016-12-08T19:20:30Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > If he were following up such rumors, then you’d think he’s have gone north to Iceland or Ireland before going west on his first voyage. Yet he went south to the Canaries on the first leg of his voyage. He did visit Ireland, and he may have visited Iceland in 1477. But he wasn’t looking for just any land, he was looking for China and Japan. By sailing from the Canaries, he would have been at the latitude of southern China. Rumors of land to the west of Ireland and Iceland would have suggested that Asia was within sailing distance of Europe, but he didn’t want to go to northern Asia. ---
**Author:** ![K364](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k364/32/5_2.png) [@K364](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K364)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-discovered-america/773983/72 "2016-12-08T19:24:41Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > If he were following up such rumors, then you’d think he’s have gone north to Iceland or Ireland before going west on his first voyage. Yet he went south to the Canaries on the first leg of his voyage. This was SOP in Winds in the Age of Sail - [link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winds_in_the_Age_of_Sail) Some quotes from that: “A European who leaves the Strait of Gibraltar soon hits the Canary current which pushes him southwest down the African coast. He soon reaches the northeast trade winds which also push him southwest. If he leaves in late summer he will hit the trade winds sooner since wind systems move north and south with the seasons. The problem was to get back again. The solution was the volta do mar in which a captain would sail northwest across the winds and currents until he found the westerlies and was blown back to Europe.” “Columbus underestimated the size of the earth and thought he could reach China by doing a grand volta do mar, going west on the trade winds and returning home on the westerlies. He had the right route but reached the Caribbean Sea rather than China” “North Atlantic: The European who sails west is sailing into the wind. Further north, he is sailing against the Gulf Stream. It is not clear how winds and currents were used in this region.” ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-discovered-america/773983/73 "2016-12-08T19:58:07Z")
Yes, to beat a horse that’s been dead over and over again in these threads here… Columbus took the smallest possible estimate of one Greek’s incorrect measurement of the Earth - About 4,000+ miles diameter. He also fudged the size of a “stadia” or lost it in translation. He added up the distances in Marco Polo’s writings, and estimated that based on the Earth’s diameter minus Marco’s wanderings, China was only about 3,000 miles west of Spain. If he’d heard that there were wild coasts to the north of where China was supposed to be, then it was just more proof he was right. The general intelligentsia of the time believed the Greek who had calculated the correct diameter, and pointed out that Chris was off by 12,000 miles - too far for ships of the day. Ferdinand and Isabel, jealous that Portugal was working its way to the Orient (via the horn of Africa) and cutting Spain out of the trade, decided to take a wild chance on Columbus. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-discovered-america/773983/74 "2016-12-08T20:08:57Z")
As I said, the recent study I heard about looked at the interior corridor supposed to be an additional route into North America. The Great lakes and central USA may have had plenty of fertile land, thanks to detritus dragged down by the glaciers and left behind when they retreated. However, the area from Siberia to central Alberta was found, by these pollen core samples in lake beds, to be very barren, a lot of bare rock and devoid of significant vegetation - presumably its covering of soil was picked up and left in the moraines down south. This study attempted to refute the idea of the “central ice-free corridor” as a path for some settlement into North America. Interesting article- North American inhabitants split off from Siberians about 25,000+ years ago, but didn’t significantly invade north America for another 10,000 years. > **[First Americans lived on land bridge for thousands of years, genetics study...](http://theconversation.com/first-americans-lived-on-land-bridge-for-thousands-of-years-genetics-study-suggests-23747)** > > The theory that the Americas were populated by humans crossing from Siberia to Alaska across a land bridge was first proposed as far back as 1590, and has been generally accepted since the 1930s. But genetic… ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-discovered-america/773983/75 "2016-12-08T21:12:47Z")
Bridget Cleary was murdered in 1895 by her husband, who claimed she was a changeling. Not the middle ages and not a witch. But I’m okay with saying people got murdered over superstition in medieval Ireland. We know they were superstitious, and humans have always been murderous. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2016, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-discovered-america/773983/76 "2016-12-09T00:08:31Z")
Not only superstitious, but > [@TSBG](#): > > humans have always been psycho at times too. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2016, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-discovered-america/773983/77 "2016-12-09T01:27:41Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > By the time of Columbus, mercantilism had taken hold in western Europe, prompting countries to look outward for new possibilities for trade. The exploration and colonization of the Americas took place quickly after Columbus’s voyage because the time was ripe for it, when it hadn’t been 500 years earlier. In 1453 the Ottoman Empire closed the Silk Road, prompting Mediterranean coutries to look west for routes to the East, so “in 1492, Columbous sailed the ocean blue” (Mediterranean fleets had been sailing east past Constantinopel to meet up with the silk road.) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2016, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-discovered-america/773983/78 "2016-12-09T02:08:46Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > In 1453 the Ottoman Empire closed the Silk Road, prompting Mediterranean coutries to look west for routes to the East, so “in 1492, Columbous sailed the ocean blue” Portuguese explorations to find a route around Africa to the Far East pre-dated that, however, beginning in the 1430s under Prince Henry the Navigator. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2016, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-discovered-america/773983/79 "2016-12-09T05:21:36Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > In 1453 the Ottoman Empire closed the Silk Road, prompting Mediterranean coutries to look west for routes to the East, so “in 1492, Columbous sailed the ocean blue” > > (Mediterranean fleets had been sailing east past Constantinopel to meet up with the silk road.) Daniel J. Boorstin in “The Discoverers” has an excellent chapter on this. Basically, the kingdoms along the silk road imposed their own taxes and “discouraged” foreigners from wandering freely in order to maintain their markups. Genghis Kahn and his descendants opened up an Empire stretching across Asia, allowed free trade and reduced tariffs. Hence, in the 1200’s, Marco Polo and family could travel freely across Asia to China… and back. When the Mongol empire crumbled, the locals got back to their old tricks and banned foreigners, raised tariffs, all those silks and spices got very expensive again in Europe. However, the Europeans now knew where they had to go and started looking for alternative ways to get there. Portugal was geographically positioned to easily control the Africa route, so Spain was looking for alternatives. Columbus happened to have a wild idea so they took a gamble. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2016, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-discovered-america/773983/80 "2016-12-13T21:07:25Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Yes, the Celts believed in curses (including the medieval Irish). They also believed in witches. That doesn’t mean they were killing innocent women over perceived slights. They were, in fact, more likely to resort to self-help (countercharms, etc.) > **[Alice Kyteler](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Kyteler)** > > Dame Alice Kyteler (/ˈkɪtlər/; c. 1260 – after 1324) was the first recorded person condemned for witchcraft in Ireland. She fled the country to either England or Flanders, and there is no record of her after her escape from persecution. Her servant Petronilla de Meath (de Midia, meaning of Meath, her first name also spelt Petronella) was flogged and burned to death at the stake on 3 November 1324, after being tortured and confessing to the heretical crimes she, Kyteler, and Kyteler's Kyteler w... > **[Islandmagee witch trial](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islandmagee_witch_trial)** > > .mw-parser-output .geo-default,.mw-parser-output .geo-dms,.mw-parser-output .geo-dec{display:inline}.mw-parser-output .geo-nondefault,.mw-parser-output .geo-multi-punct,.mw-parser-output .geo-inline-hidden{display:none}.mw-parser-output .longitude,.mw-parser-output .latitude{white-space:nowrap}54°48′59″N 5°43′39″W / 54.816358°N 5.727437°W / 54.816358; -5.727437 (Site of Knowehead House) > > The Islandmagee witch trials were two criminal trials in Carrickfergus in 1711 for alleged witchcraft at I... I don’t know how good the court record is from medieval Ireland. I somewhat doubt that it is very complete. It’s probably also reasonable to assume that some killings would have happened extra-judiciously. But, there does seem to be evidence of at least some prosecuted witches, including in medieval times. So, thar you go. But I should also point out that my post wasn’t intended to bolster the idea that the Irish went to the New World. I was saying nothing beyond what I said, the presence of fantastic elements isn’t a slam-dunk against a tale being untrue. A greater context is really necessary to make that sort of determination. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-discovered-america/773983/81 "2016-12-14T06:14:23Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > … > > And then there was St. Brendan, of course. And all the Dunders de Dunnes in Markland’s Vineland beyond Brendan’s herring pool takes number nine in yangsee’s hats. _Finnegans Wake_, 213:35 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-discovered-america/773983.md?page=3)