# Who really killed Montezuma? Hernando Cortez' army or the Aztecs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 15, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-killed-montezuma-hernando-cortez-army-or-the-aztecs/652968 "2013-03-15T01:57:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-killed-montezuma-hernando-cortez-army-or-the-aztecs/652968/1 "2013-03-15T01:57:49Z")
Hi My questiojn is this. Who really killed Montezuma? Hernando Cortez’ army or the Aztecs?I’ve read both versions and I would likle to know where the most recent studies stand on this issue. What do most scholarly historians think? I look forward to your answers. davidmich ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-killed-montezuma-hernando-cortez-army-or-the-aztecs/652968/2 "2013-03-15T02:06:34Z")
Reported for forum change. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-killed-montezuma-hernando-cortez-army-or-the-aztecs/652968/3 "2013-03-15T02:13:00Z")
Moved to GD. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-killed-montezuma-hernando-cortez-army-or-the-aztecs/652968/4 "2013-03-15T03:20:53Z")
The doubts are coming by taking into account the narratives of the survivors of the Aztecs, the account is indeed different from the Spanish one. > **[New exhibition challenges view of Aztec emperor Moctezuma as traitor](https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2009/apr/07/montezuma-exhibition-british-museum-moctezuma)** > > British Museum claims leader of lost civilisation died at hands of Spanish explorers, not his own followers > [@](#): > > The traditional account of the death of Moctezuma – the museum has adopted the spelling as closer to his name in his own Nahuatl language than the more common Montezuma – is that having been taken a willing hostage by Hernán Cortés and the conquistadors, he was killed by his own outraged people. > > According to several versions of the story, in 1520, the Spanish brought him out onto a balcony of his own palace to try and calm the riotous mob, but he was pelted with stones and killed. > > One Spanish account, written years later, even insists that he refused medical help and food from his Spanish captors, who “spoke very kindly to him”, before suddenly dying. > > However, the exhibition will include two small images from later manuscripts, one now in Glasgow, one in Mexico, both probably made by Aztecs working for Spanish patrons, which show the leader distinctly less kindly treated, brought out with a rope around his neck, or shackled. Once the Aztecs began to revolt against the presence of the Spanish in their capital city, Tenochtitlan, this version suggests, Moctezuma was useless to them, so they killed him before just managing to escape with their lives. IMO that is likely, because Pizarro followed the same tactics in Peru as Cortes did, once Atahualpa was no longer useful he was killed by the Spaniards. The only difference was that in Peru the Spaniards clearly had the upper hand, but in Mexico not many Spaniards escaped after they likely disposed of Montezuma after he showed that he was useless to them, of course Cortez rearmed and destroyed Tenochtitlan later. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-killed-montezuma-hernando-cortez-army-or-the-aztecs/652968/5 "2013-03-15T06:45:50Z")
Hernán Cortés, please, with or without the accents. Cortez is a common overcorrection in some locations including the US, Hernando is just wrong. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-killed-montezuma-hernando-cortez-army-or-the-aztecs/652968/6 "2013-03-15T07:08:10Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Hernán Cortés, please, with or without the accents. Cortez is a common overcorrection in some locations including the US, Hernando is just wrong. Well, dang, it turns out that I \*\*made \*\*the correct spelling first but then the checker missed the one with “z” What is annoying is that many dictionaries here report that both spellings are good. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-killed-montezuma-hernando-cortez-army-or-the-aztecs/652968/7 "2013-03-15T08:17:43Z")
Like I said, Cortez is a very common way of spelling it in the US (people think it’s a patronimic, when it’s actually a word meaning “courteous, honorable”). I noticed your change of spelling too. ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-killed-montezuma-hernando-cortez-army-or-the-aztecs/652968/8 "2013-03-21T14:33:42Z")
Thank you for your replies. They were both very helpful. davidmich ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-killed-montezuma-hernando-cortez-army-or-the-aztecs/652968/9 "2013-03-21T14:41:09Z")
Wikipedia: > [@](#): > > While he is often now referred to as Hernán or Hernando Cortés (IPA: [korˈteθ]), in his time he called himself Hernando or Fernando Cortés ([korˈtes]). The names Hernán, Hernando and Fernando are all equally correct. The latter two were most commonly used during his lifetime, but the former shortened form has become common in both the Spanish and English languages in modern times, and is the name by which many people know him today. So, Hernando or Fernando are more correct than Hernan. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-killed-montezuma-hernando-cortez-army-or-the-aztecs/652968/10 "2013-03-21T14:50:44Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Like I said, Cortez is a very common way of spelling it in the US (people think it’s a patronimic, when it’s actually a word meaning “courteous, honorable”). I noticed your change of spelling too. If you read Bernal Diaz (or just about any history, for that matter), you see how incredibly inappropriate “courteous” is. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-killed-montezuma-hernando-cortez-army-or-the-aztecs/652968/11 "2013-03-21T22:23:04Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Like I said, Cortez is a very common way of spelling it in the US (people think it’s a patronimic, when it’s actually a word meaning “courteous, honorable”). I noticed your change of spelling too. Cortez is the correct traditional spelling in English. ( [Gulf of California - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_of_Cortez) ) Cortés is indeed a patronimic, he was the son of Martín Cortés and Catalina Pizarro. He was a charismatic leader who lead people into doing incredible feats and who turned people around just with his words. He was a great military leader but much more a skilled politician. His greatest achievements are in how he convinced Spanish and natives alike. When he and his men could barely hold Mexico city a Spanish army outnumbering them was sent against them but he went to meet them, talked to them and most of them changed to his side. The aim of Cortez (and the Spanish policy in general) was not to destroy the civilizations they found but to integrate them into the Spanish empire. To this purpose they strived to conserve the existing social order and hierarchy and the ruling classes were given Spanish titles of nobility. As long as they submitted to Spanish rule they were pretty much allowed to continue as before. The idea was that it was easier and better to slowly introduce Christianity and European customs than to immediately impose them by force. Only when a people did not submit to the Spanish was war waged against them. It was a conquest conducted along similar lines as the Reconquista and with the same mentality. While Montezuma was emperor and held as a “forced guest” of Cortez he was treated with utmost respect and Spanish soldiers were punished if they did not salute him when they went by him. Again, the idea was to keep the existing social order and use him to control his people. What the Spanish did not seem to fully understand is that once Montezuma had been deposed and replaced he was pretty much powerless (he was not really a king but held an elective office from which he was removed and replaced). They tried to use him to calm the Mexicans but the Mexicans already had a different leader who had given orders to attack the Spanish. He was almost certainly killed by the attackers. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-killed-montezuma-hernando-cortez-army-or-the-aztecs/652968/12 "2013-03-21T22:31:10Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Cortez is the correct traditional spelling in English. > ( [Gulf of California - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_of_Cortez) ) > > Cortés is indeed a patronimic, he was the son of Martín Cortés and Catalina Pizarro. That makes it a family name, but not necessarily a patronymic. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-killed-montezuma-hernando-cortez-army-or-the-aztecs/652968/13 "2013-03-21T23:28:22Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > That makes it a family name, but not necessarily a patronymic. Ok, now I see I did not fully understand Nava’s meaning. Now I get it. That some people think the -ez implies that. I totally overlooked that and thought she was meaning that he was called Cortés as an adjective and not because he inherited the name. In other words, never mind me. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-killed-montezuma-hernando-cortez-army-or-the-aztecs/652968/14 "2013-03-22T00:04:45Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > If you read Bernal Diaz (or just about any history, for that matter), you see how incredibly inappropriate “courteous” is. And you will also see how even more vile the Aztecs were. They practiced human sacrifice on a large scale…some 50,000 in four days. Even the industrialized German national socialists under their community activist couldn’t match that pace at Auschwitz ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-killed-montezuma-hernando-cortez-army-or-the-aztecs/652968/15 "2013-03-22T01:40:52Z")
Bernal Diaz del Castillo speaks very highly of Cortez calling him brave and comparing him to great historical leaders like Alexander, Julius Caesar and others. Cortez gets a bad rap in the English-speaking world because of the general anti-Spanish slant of English history books. Judging those times by today’s standards makes no sense but by the standards of the times Spain and Spanish customs and mentality were far ahead of anything else in Europe. The concern about the morality and justice of the conquest and the rights of the natives was unheard of at the time and even centuries later in other cultures. Spain was spreading Christianity with the same zeal the British would later spread “civilization” and America today spreads “democracy”. Except we’re talking 500 years ago. Cortez wanted to conquer land and peoples for Spain and gain glory and riches for himself and his men. His men generally loved him and in many cases if they criticise him it is because he did not let them loot or they considered their share was insufficient. In Cozumel Cortez rebuked his lieutenant Alvarado for stealing some gold and chickens from the natives and ordered them returned saying “this is no way to pacify a land”. For 500 years ago the record is not bad at all. Specially if you compare it to what was done later and what is being done now by other cultures. Cortez did not conquer Mexico with a handful of Spaniards, he led a revolt of thousands of Tlaxcalans and other tribes who were being oppressed by the Mexicans and were tired of it. Cortez was just the leader they needed to revolt. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-killed-montezuma-hernando-cortez-army-or-the-aztecs/652968/16 "2013-03-22T03:42:15Z")
He and the Spaniards got a good rap in my history books, but they were Catholic and all. Didn’t get much about the Founding Fathers, though a couple of them [lived down](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montpelier_%28Orange,_Virginia%29) [the road](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monticello), because they weren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Mapache](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@Mapache](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mapache)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-killed-montezuma-hernando-cortez-army-or-the-aztecs/652968/17 "2013-03-22T03:45:34Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > And you will also see how even more vile the Aztecs were. They practiced human sacrifice on a large scale…some 50,000 in four days. Even the industrialized German national socialists under their community activist couldn’t match that pace at Auschwitz Nonsense. Cortes himself estimated about 3500 sacrifices per year in the entire empire (quoted in 1491, by Charles C Mann). 50,000 in four days would have depopulated large parts of their country, and was impossible anyway. In four days there are 48 daylight hours, and sacrifices to the sun were obviously only done when the sun is in the sky. So to kill 40000 men (women weren’t used for heart sacrifices, in spite of thousands of cheap calendar prints of a grieving warrior weeping over his sacrificed wife) meant that they would have lead up the pyramid, stretch out on the altar, cut out the heart (not an easy task with a flint knife, as some doctors down here recently proved by experiments on cadavers) hold the heart up to the sun, chant various incantations, dismember the corpse, and roll it down the pyramid steps, in four seconds, non stop, for twelve hours straight. And the captives were often more or less volunteers (look up “flower wars” if you want to know more); were treated like kings while waiting for the sacrifice, often drugged before death, told that they were messengers to the gods who would be welcomed as heros into paradise, and killed in the quickest and least painful manner they knew. Contrast this with the Catholics, who often tortured their victims until they had to be dragged to the stake, kept them in filthy dungeons, told them that they were being sent to Hell for further torture, and murdered them in the most agonizing manner possible. Charles Mann, by the way, quoting from a lot of old documents, estimates that the English executed more people per capita than the Aztecs did, (think ten year olds hanged for stealing a loaf of bread) and that the Spanish, French, and Italians killed even more. Often by torture. The Mayans sometimes even sacrificed the winning team captain of their sacred ball games, who played his heart out, often for several days, knowing what his fate would be if he won. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-killed-montezuma-hernando-cortez-army-or-the-aztecs/652968/18 "2013-03-22T03:50:38Z")
I’m not sure who killed him, but he got his revenge. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-killed-montezuma-hernando-cortez-army-or-the-aztecs/652968/19 "2013-03-22T05:53:18Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Bernal Diaz del Castillo speaks very highly of Cortez calling him brave and comparing him to great historical leaders like Alexander, Julius Caesar and others. > > Cortez gets a bad rap in the English-speaking world because of the general anti-Spanish slant of English history books. Judging those times by today’s standards makes no sense but by the standards of the times Spain and Spanish customs and mentality were far ahead of anything else in Europe. > > The concern about the morality and justice of the conquest and the rights of the natives was unheard of at the time and even centuries later in other cultures. > > Spain was spreading Christianity with the same zeal the British would later spread “civilization” and America today spreads “democracy”. Except we’re talking 500 years ago. > > Cortez wanted to conquer land and peoples for Spain and gain glory and riches for himself and his men. His men generally loved him and in many cases if they criticise him it is because he did not let them loot or they considered their share was insufficient. > > In Cozumel Cortez rebuked his lieutenant Alvarado for stealing some gold and chickens from the natives and ordered them returned saying “this is no way to pacify a land”. > > For 500 years ago the record is not bad at all. Specially if you compare it to what was done later and what is being done now by other cultures. > > Cortez did not conquer Mexico with a handful of Spaniards, he led a revolt of thousands of Tlaxcalans and other tribes who were being oppressed by the Mexicans and were tired of it. Cortez was just the leader they needed to revolt. Great post, my old friend. I no longer have the energy to engage in these ‘debates.’ “Black Legend” my arse. Mind you, I am not proud of our past Empire, but as you very well said, _context_ matters. Shall we meet again in good health. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-killed-montezuma-hernando-cortez-army-or-the-aztecs/652968/20 "2013-03-22T11:29:01Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Cortez is the correct traditional spelling in English. > ( [Gulf of California - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_of_Cortez) ) > > Cortés is indeed a patronimic, he was the son of Martín Cortés and Catalina Pizarro. The patronimic would be Martínez. Cortez as a patronimic would mean “son of Corto”. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-really-killed-montezuma-hernando-cortez-army-or-the-aztecs/652968.md?page=2)