# Who’s your favorite anti-hero **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** actor-characters\ **Created:** [February 23, 2023, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253 "2023-02-23T19:48:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/61 "2023-02-24T15:06:22Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > OK, I withdraw that one. It was shaky to begin with. But I will hold that Granny Weatherwax was never a _hero_. Protagonist, sure. But she resented the snot out of being forced to be the “good one.” She would much rather have been even more powerful and evil than Black Aliss. ---
**Author:** ![janis\_and\_c0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/janis_and_c0/32/21_2.png) [@janis\_and\_c0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/janis_and_c0)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/62 "2023-02-24T15:22:27Z")
@solost Granny’s name was Daisy Moses and she was Jed’s mother in law (said the font of useless trivia) I’m not sure Londo Mollari from Bab 5 counts, or if he would be considered an outright villain (doubtful in light of his eventual redemptive story arc) or a tragic hero. But _I_ think he fits this trope. And if so, then he is hands down my favorite. No one could chew scenery or break my heart like Peter Jurasik… ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/63 "2023-02-24T15:23:01Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Sim Vimes, also mentioned in this thread, is also a Discworld character. Lord Veternari should probably count as an antihero, too. ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/64 "2023-02-24T15:25:07Z")
> [@janis\_and\_c0](#): > > @solost Granny’s name was Daisy Moses and she was Jed’s mother in law (said the font of useless trivia) Thank you, janice! I’m learning all sorts of new stuff today 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/65 "2023-02-24T15:33:45Z")
I don’t think Londo or Havelock come anywhere _close_ to meeting the definition of a hero, anti, tragic or not. The only time Londo even _approaches_ heroism is when he asks Vir to kill him to save Centauri Prime from the Shadow’s Planet Killer. Vetinari is efficient, dedicated and ruthless, but more a facilitator of heroism in others rather than being one himself. And yes, **solost** , you really need to read Pratchett. There are numerous threads on reading order, arcs and such on the Dope. Wade on in, the water ain’t deep (except in some places.) ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/66 "2023-02-24T16:01:07Z")
> [@peccavi](#): > > Michael Ciane was good at playing the anti-hero. Your post brought to mind his portrayal of Peachy Carnehan in _The Man Who Would Be King_. Also Charlie Croker in _The Italian Job_. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/67 "2023-02-24T16:44:22Z")
> [@janis\_and\_c0](#): > > I’m not sure Londo Mollari from Bab 5 counts, or if he would be considered an outright villain (doubtful in light of his eventual redemptive story arc) or a tragic hero. But _I_ think he fits this trope. And if so, then he is hands down my favorite. No one could chew scenery or break my heart like Peter Jurasik… > [@silenus](#): > > I don’t think Londo or Havelock come anywhere _close_ to meeting the definition of a hero, anti, tragic or not. The only time Londo even _approaches_ heroism is when he asks Vir to kill him to save Centauri Prime from the Shadow’s Planet Killer. I’m going to agree _more_ with @janis_and_c0’s interpretation, although, like a lot of things, it depends. Using a part of the Wikiquote by @Darren_Garrison upthread. > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > The first is that the antihero is doomed to fail before their adventure begins. The second constitutes the blame of that failure on everyone but themselves. Thirdly, they offer a critique of social morals and reality.[[8]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antihero#cite_note-8) To other scholars, an antihero is inherently a hero from a specific point of view, and a villain from another.[ It would seem that Londo qualifies on most if not all of these points. And for the Centauri who feel, as Londo did, that they are losing their place in the galaxy, he certainly is/was a hero. And in general, after blaming everyone else, and trying to weasel his way out of responsibilities, he finally will do the right thing, or the rightest thing _left_ to him at the end. In general, I still consider him a valid anti-hero, but more accurately I consider him more a _failed_ hero. He had opportunities, several, in which he could have been a force for so much good, and prevented so much sacrifice, but he was a little too blind, a little too selfish, a little too angry. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/68 "2023-02-24T16:59:02Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > but he was a little too blind, a little too selfish, a little too angry. _As I look at you, Ambassador Mollari, I see a great hand reaching out of the stars. The hand is your hand. And I hear sounds, the sounds of billions of people calling your name._ _My followers?_ _Your victims._ And it was the Vorlons who had the Planet Killer, not the Shadows, dummy. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/69 "2023-02-24T17:11:29Z")
That was one of the quotes I was thinking of, yes. Since we’re using such wide-reaching anti-hero definitions, I felt it’s fine to include him, but he makes much more sense as a failed hero. Because, unlike a lot of anti-heroes, it’s hard to argue that Londo didn’t understand (okay, past the first one to two efforts by the Shadows on his behalf) that what he was doing was wrong and evil _even_ by his own moral standards. The image of him watching the mass drivers being used on Narn is a moment when you see a man who knows he’s damned himself. Most (but not all) heroes and anti-heroes (or aberrant alignments from Palladium) won’t break their own codes, which is for me at least, a key component in analyzing them as such. Londo for me, tends to fall into the trope of the failed hero who tries for atonement. And I always, always love analyzing him in the contrast to G’kar. Londo is arguably a better, more moral person at the start (if still insanely selfish), while G’kar is by many standards, an aggressive, opportunistic monster who can be charming if he wants to. One of the things that makes B5 worth rewatching every few years is watching them slide across the scales before finally finding themselves in much the same space. (Huge generalities to avoid further hijacking the thread). ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/70 "2023-02-24T18:05:05Z")
“Young” Joe in Looper (played by Joseph Gordon-Levitt) is up there definitely, for me. Especially as “Old” Joe, played by Bruce Willis, is the opposite, starting out as an anti-hero (I mean he’s literally the same character) , but ends up being a flat-out villain (albeit with some sympathetic motivations). Awesome movie, and awesome characters IMO. Judge Dredd also a contender (the comic book and Karl Urban movie, not the Sly Stallone abomination). ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/71 "2023-02-24T18:11:55Z")
I’m not sure what makes an ‘anti-hero’. I think a ‘hero’ must have nobility of spirit, someone who is selflessly motivated to the do the right thing. ‘Anti-heroes’ seem to differ in their motivation, it may be anger or revenge, and the results may be the same that a ‘hero’ would produce, but the ‘anti-hero’ can be relied on to act selflessly or do the right thing in the future. It’s a tough call since many stories offer redemption to an ‘anti-hero’ transforming them into a hero. I don’t think a precise definition is needed for ‘anti-hero’ either. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Burden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@Jack\_Burden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Burden)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/72 "2023-02-24T18:19:09Z")
In addition to the other Clint Eastwood characters, throw in William Munny from Unforgiven and of course Josey Wales. Max Rockatansky (Mad Max) Paul “Wrecking” Crewe (Burt Reynolds version) ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/73 "2023-02-24T18:23:43Z")
Eh, while Blondie has moments where he transcends his selfishness, it’s harder to argue that Munny does. He’s pretty much a monster, knows he was, and when push comes to shove, is willing to be again. The whole point of Unforgiven (IMHO of course) is that no one there is fully innocent, they’ve all got it coming as the movie itself says. Then again, with as wide a definition as we’re using, he’d probably still barely make it, just less so than Blondie. As for Max. He’s absolutely a hero, just a worn down one in the first movie, and has transitioned to an anti-hero by the end (but see also [Crapsack world](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrapsackWorld)). The second, Road Warrior, yeah he’s a solid anti-hero. The third… just hard to define. Probably still but that movie’s characterization was all over the place. Fury Road and the Prequel comics, pretty damn certain. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/74 "2023-02-24T18:26:13Z")
> [@Jack\_Burden](#): > > William Munny from Unforgiven Does he count as a hero? He’s kinda acting throughout most of the movie as a purely self-interested paid killer (albeit one with a family to feed). When that changes its only to get revenge for friend (who while he didn’t deserve his fate was involved in the murder of Davey, certainly enough to be guilty of murder in a modern court of law). Does that make him a hero, anti or otherwise? Not that is a criticism of the movie, it what makes it freaking awesome. You are absolutely rooting for him as much as any classic western, but he is not in fact doing anything good. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Burden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@Jack\_Burden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Burden)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/75 "2023-02-24T18:38:54Z")
Munny is certainly coming from a lifetime of utter villainy, but is evolving due to the influence of his deceased wife and the responsibility to raise his kids as a widower. He expresses regret for his prior life to Ned. While he has no intrinsically heroic qualities, he does have the mettle to get hard things done in a violent landscape. His actions, not his character, rise to the level of anti-hero for me, specifically standing up for the girls in the whore house against the men of the town, and taking on Little Bill who has set himself up as the town’s ruler, writing his own laws, establishing his personal militia, and beating nearly to death any stranger he views as a threat. Of course, so much of this has to do with your definition of an anti-hero. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/76 "2023-02-24T18:54:06Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I’m not sure what makes an ‘anti-hero’. To me its a flawed morally ambiguous character, who does ultimately do the “right”, “heroic” thing, but not (at first at least) for the “right”, “heroic” reasons. Han Solo being the archetype (I’m surprised as @solost he wasn’t mentioned early) ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/77 "2023-02-24T18:55:48Z")
In the middle of re-watching _The Expanse_, so I’ll offer up, Detective Josephus Miller. A corrupt cop on Ceres, who at one point explains that he became a cop because a friend of his asked him, “Do you want to spend the rest of your life as an ass, or a boot?” Cynical, jaded, often drunk. Hired to do a “kidnap job”, he eventually gets mixed up in all the goings on, and pretty much ends up saving Earth because he fell in love with a mystery girl, not because he actually cares that much about Earth. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/78 "2023-02-24T19:22:42Z")
> [@Jack\_Burden](#): > > Paul “Wrecking” Crewe (Burt Reynolds version) Good one. _Oh I ain’t saying you did or you didn’t. All I’m saying is that you could have robbed banks, sold dope or stole your grandmother’s pension checks and none of us would have minded. But shaving points off of a football game, man that’s un-American._ ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/79 "2023-02-24T19:23:56Z")
John Constantine Before DC made him family-friendly, he was likely to screw his friends as collateral damage when he was fighting the forces of darkness. He had to kill off his empathic side to keep from being destroyed by guilt. He manipulated people to get them to help him, then left them to deal with the fallout when he no longer needed them. But he was really charming and cool about it. Sometimes he’d screw over the lords of Hell just as well. He sold his soul to three demon lords to avoid cancer, but didn’t tell any of them about the other two until they came to collect simultaneously, leaving them to fight amongst themselves while he flipped them off. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/80 "2023-02-24T19:25:16Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Han Solo being the archetype Though, that said, I think his character was based on the old film-noir anti-heros. So its probably more correct to say the archetypical anti-hero is Rick from Casablanca or Sam Spade from Maltese Falcon. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253.md?page=5)