# Who’s your favorite anti-hero **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** actor-characters\ **Created:** [February 23, 2023, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253 "2023-02-23T19:48:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Jack\_Burden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@Jack\_Burden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Burden)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/81 "2023-02-24T19:32:04Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > To me its a flawed morally ambiguous character, who does ultimately do the “right”, “heroic” thing, but not (at first at least) for the “right”, “heroic” reasons. Han Solo being the archetype (I’m surprised as @solost he wasn’t mentioned early) I considered Solo; when we first meet Han he’s 100% anti-hero (who shoots first!) but by the end of the film has completely converted to straight hero, choosing his friends and the Rebellion over his own self-interest and stays solidly there the rest of the trilogy. Interesting that in The Force Awakens he and Chewie seem to be back to their roguish ways, but again he goes right back to hero mode when needed. Tried to make a case for Ben Solo. He goes from pure villain willing to kill his own father to rising up against and killing Snoke to ultimately joining Rey against Palpatine, and his backstory and confrontation with Luke adds to his character. But to build that case requires one to revisit The Rise of Skywalker, and no-one should be subjected to that. ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/82 "2023-02-24T19:39:25Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > To me its a flawed morally ambiguous character, who does ultimately do the “right”, “heroic” thing, but not (at first at least) for the “right”, “heroic” reasons. This is the closest to my thinking of what makes an anti-hero as well- closer to ‘actual hero’ than to ‘villian’ for sure. > [@Jack\_Burden](#): > > Interesting that in The Force Awakens he and Chewie seem to be back to their roguish ways, but again he goes right back to hero mode when needed. Hey, a man and his Wookie pal gotta make a living. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/83 "2023-02-24T19:40:33Z")
> [@Jack\_Burden](#): > > I considered Solo; when we first meet Han he’s 100% anti-hero (who shoots first!) but by the end of the film has completely converted to straight hero, choosing his friends and the Rebellion over his own self-interest and stays solidly there the rest of the trilogy. There is something to that, I’d say that is usually the fate of an anti-hero in Hollywood IMO 🙂 That’s why I like Looper, as the “Old” Joe character goes the other way, starting out as an anti-hero ending up as villain. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/84 "2023-02-24T20:10:17Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Another Paul Newman - I was just re-watching the Newman Western Hombre and IMHO his John Russell definitely qualifies Oh for sure, this might be the quintessential anti-hero. Love this movie. Two side questions that I always wondered about this movie: 1. Was Mrs. Favor in on the heist? 2. What happened to the outlaw that Grimes sent around back? > [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > > > he is a lawbreaker in the society in which he lives. > > “Follows the law” is not a heroic prerequisite. Heroic and Lawful Good are not synonyms. I didn’t mean to imply he wasn’t a hero, I just responding to the suggestion that he was a straight hero. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/85 "2023-02-24T20:16:57Z")
How about the Wild Bunch? Criminals all, but they go out in a blaze of glory taking down people even worse (by their standards) in defense of one of their own. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/86 "2023-02-24T20:17:05Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > Was Mrs. Favor in on the heist? I think probably and I rather like the film doesn’t tell us outright. But those were some unusually well-informed outlaws. How the hell would they have found out exactly how Favor got that money? > [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > What happened to the outlaw that Grimes sent around back? Came down 30 minutes after the end of the film, killed Mendez and Billy with help from Mrs. Favor, then killed Mrs. Favor as excess baggage and rode off with the money. Or decided the odds sucked and just took off. Whichever 🙂. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/87 "2023-02-24T20:25:33Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > How the hell would they have found out exactly how Favor got that money? Or which stage they were taking, as it was a last minute thing. > [@Tamerlane](#): > > > [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > > > What happened to the outlaw that Grimes sent around back? > > Came down 30 minutes after the end of the film, killed Mendez and Billy with help from Mrs. Favor, then killed Mrs. Favor as excess baggage and rode off with the money. Ha ha, I like it. Hombre 2: Revenge of the Unknown Outlaw. ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/88 "2023-02-24T20:26:01Z")
For yet another Newman, and a couple anti-heroes who are much more on the ‘bad guy’ side of things, how about Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid? As train robbers (and I don’t think the ‘Robin Hood’ style of robbers) they are clearly ‘bad guys’ by any definition. And yet, they were so friendly and nice about their robbing! Very personable chaps. I don’t think they ever killed anybody (in the movie, at least) and the one admitted at one point to not even knowing how to fire a gun. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stainless_steel_rat/32/5727_2.png) [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/89 "2023-02-24T20:48:03Z")
> [@Dendarii\_Dame](#): > > Slippery Jim diGriz (created by Harry Harrison) I second this (obviously). More from the book (and for that matter, movies), Long John Silver. And perhaps Clint Eastwood again, in **The Outlaw Josie Wales** And here’s one for consideration: **“Q”** from the Star Trek franchise; could easily be seen as a villain, but in most cases what he does is for the most part ends up benefiting the ‘heros’ in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/90 "2023-02-24T20:50:02Z")
> [@solost](#): > > I don’t think they ever killed anybody (in the movie, at least) and the one admitted at one point to not even knowing how to fire a gun. …what happened _right after_ that guy admitted to never yet having fired a gun? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/91 "2023-02-24T20:59:05Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > …what happened _right after_ that guy admitted to never yet having fired a gun? 😉 Killed somebody, I assume from context? I remember a lot of the movie, at least many individual scenes, but it’s been a looong time since my last viewing. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/92 "2023-02-24T21:12:21Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > “Follows the law” is not a heroic prerequisite. Heroic and Lawful Good are not synonyms. Not in modern cinema, but that was not always the case. There was a time when it was assumed that a hero would be law abiding, unambiguously “good guy”: a brave handsome defender of the weak and enemy to the villain. The term anti-hero was coined to describe a hero who was still doing heroic things was just less unambiguously “lawful good”, I believe. It’s just become such a trope now that it’s norm for your hero to be somewhat anti-heroic. ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/93 "2023-02-24T23:37:19Z")
I just thought of a great anti-hero from classic literature: John Milton’s version of Lucifer in Paradise Lost. Scene: Lucifer and his rebelling angels have just lost the war against God and were thrown into the fiery black pits of hell. The other fallen angels are despairing, but ol’ Nick rallies them: _His utmost power with adverse power oppos’d_ _In dubious Battel on the Plains of Heav’n,_ _And shook his throne. What though the field be lost?_ _All is not lost; the unconquerable Will,_ _And study of revenge, immortal hate,_ _And courage never to submit or yield:_ _And what is else not to be overcome?_ _That Glory never shall his wrath or might_ _Extort from me._ If not exactly an anti-hero, he was at least a damn fine motivational speaker. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2023, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/94 "2023-02-25T00:02:23Z")
> [@solost](#): > > Killed somebody, I assume from context? I remember a lot of the movie, at least many individual scenes, but it’s been a looong time since my last viewing. If memory serves, he says he’d never _shot_ anybody before, not that he didn’t know how to handle a gun, and yes, they immediately shoot some guys. Although you could make the case that that is the only heroic thing they do, in that they recover the mine’s money and avenge their boss, the colorful Strother Martin. (I don’t recall if there’s any indication they actually return the money). They certainly shot plenty of Bolivian soldiers in the final scenes. ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2023, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/95 "2023-02-25T00:07:28Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > If memory serves, he says he’d never _shot_ anybody before, not that he didn’t know how to handle a gun Well, if memory serves me in that particular scene (which it may not) I remember the scene being something like: the one guy (don’t remember which was Butch or Sundance) says he’s not good with guns, and the other guy says “just aim for his middle, and you’ll probably hit something”. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2023, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/96 "2023-02-25T00:15:27Z")
Looks like we’re both remembering well enough. [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/zllq8gohuPo/hqdefault.jpg "Dear Banditos") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zllq8gohuPo) ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2023, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/97 "2023-02-25T00:28:09Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > > [@peccavi](#): > > > > Michael Ciane was good at playing the anti-hero. Your post brought to mind his portrayal of Peachy Carnehan in _The Man Who Would Be King_. > > Also Charlie Croker in _The Italian Job_. And Harry Brown in _Harry Brown_. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47774/32.png) [@epbrown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2023, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/98 "2023-02-25T01:17:57Z")
Charles B. Riddick from **Pitch Black.** ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2023, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/99 "2023-02-25T02:38:10Z")
I’ll disagree on Riddick - he’s a sociopathic hero at best, but more likely a villain protagonist. > **[Sociopathic Hero - TV Tropes](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SociopathicHero)** > > They fight for the good guys. They might even believe in the cause (to a point). But they are a hero only in name. They are Anti-Heroes who have a fundamental Lack of Empathy, a sociopathic disregard for their enemies' lives, and possibly a lack … > **[Villain Protagonist - TV Tropes](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainProtagonist)** > > An interesting twist on conventional storytelling: make the bad guy, or a bad guy, the main character. Sometimes (but not always), this villainous main character will even get the Sympathetic P.O.V. On the other hand, it is not necessary for a … In Pitch Black (we won’t talk about any of the sequels for the moment), he is actively evil, but fascinated with the captain. Doesn’t mean he isn’t interesting, and that Johns isn’t a shit, but all but one of the overtly heroic characters end up poorly. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2023, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253/100 "2023-02-25T04:09:29Z")
Stana Katic calls Emily Byrne (_Absentia)_ an anti-hero, and who am I to disagree with her? The major villains in _Babylon 5_ are all anti-heroes, at least for some part of the story. There are even some entire races that are anti-heroes (so to speak). But it goes back to long before there were cameras. Captain Nemo. Timon of Athens and King Leontes of Sicilia. Sir Balin the Savage. Cleon of Thebes _(Antigone)_. Achilles of the Myrmidons. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-s-your-favorite-anti-hero/980253.md?page=6)