# Who should be punished in this workplace violence situation? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 20, 2015, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-be-punished-in-this-workplace-violence-situation/710402 "2015-01-20T19:15:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-be-punished-in-this-workplace-violence-situation/710402/21 "2015-01-20T20:49:21Z")
Tony fell down. Nobody gets fired. In private warn them they’ll both get fired if anything like that ever happens again. If they don’t go along with that, for instance one of them wants to take formal action, then fire both of them. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-be-punished-in-this-workplace-violence-situation/710402/22 "2015-01-20T20:58:53Z")
Make a deal with Frank: promise not to fire him (for throwing the first punch) if he promises not to file suit against the dealership for maintaining a hostile work environment. Fire Mike, who has exposed the dealership to major civil liability for maintaining a hostile work environment. Fire Tony, for workplace behavior that is far beyond the pale. Any assault charges or civil suit brought by Tony against Frank (for the assault) is their business. I’d guess Tony wouldn’t want to pursue legal action (especially over just a bloody nose), because then the story of all the things he said would have to be publicly told. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-be-punished-in-this-workplace-violence-situation/710402/23 "2015-01-20T21:04:32Z")
Tony gets fired. Even if he weren’t crossing the line, he’s trying to deliberately hurt sales. There’s one appropriate response to that. Tony also faces legal action for sexual harassment. I don’t know if the laws in their state would support criminal action against him, but there’s at least a civil suit in there. You might also be able to get something for “promoting delinquency of a minor”, or similar charges. Frank faces some sort of disciplinary action, because provocation or no, you don’t go punching other employees. A suspension would probably be appropriate. Don’t directly disqualify him from the Salesman of the Year award, but the suspension would probably be enough to let the #3 contender, whoever that is, catch up. If Tony tries to take legal action… well, let’s say that Tony really shouldn’t want any of this to see the inside of a courtroom, because there’s no way it goes well for him. Mike is no longer part of management, and I’m inclined to say he’s probably fired. A manager who laughs at sexual harassment is part of the problem. What happens with Steve depends on exactly what he knew, and when. If it was just “Hey, Steve, I have a problem that you need to look at” “Not now, I’m busy, take it up with Mike”, then he’s in the clear: He’s already doing two jobs, and he doesn’t need to be doing the job of one of his underlings, too. On the other hand, if Frank sent him an e-mail describing the problem, and saying that Mike has already blown him off, then Steve’s got problems, too. And Geoff also bears some blame for hiring all these people and not keeping a closer eye on them, but since he’s also the one assigning the punishments, his is probably going to be some number of sleepless nights. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-be-punished-in-this-workplace-violence-situation/710402/24 "2015-01-20T21:06:46Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > I’m not familiar with the ownership structure of a dealership: would it be inappropriate for Geoff to operate as General Manager _and_ General Sales Manager? I’ve never been high enough in the hierarchy of a dealership to be sure how to answer that, but I doubt it. Geoff certainly _could_–he’s majority owner to, nobody’s gonna stop him–but from the sound of things it would be counter-productive. It just shifts the overwork to him rather than Steve. > [@](#): > > If that’s fine, I might send Steve to run the Used Car side “while we look for Mike’s replacement”, with the idea that Steve needs some practice listening to his employees and not spending time in his ivory tower. Steve doesn’t know it, but that’s his chance to shape up a bit. He’s been fine before, if he’s fine here, eventually Geoff hires someone to run the Used Car side and Steve returns to upper management. (From the story, I get the idea this is the mostly likely option). If Steve instead plays it hoity-toity and used cars doesn’t improve (which, without a jerk like Mike at the helm, it should improve), maybe he stays there while he refines his management skills and Geoff brings in someone else as General Sales Manager. I dunno. Steve has certainly screwed up, but he’s being somewhat of mensch about it; he pointed out his culpability to Geoff without being prompted. I think he should get some points for that. And a demotion like that won’t work anyway. Bad for morale. I think I posted hereabouts about a manager at my current job who got demoted to sales staff, and the problems it caused. Unless it’s the employee’s desire, going from manager to staff is so fraught with problems I can’t recommend it. > [@](#): > > If it’s not feasible to be GM and GSM at the same time, Steve just has to play double-duty for a month while Geoff finds a new manager. Won’t work either, at least not until the move is finished; it would just pile more work on Steve. If there’s an assistant used car manager, Geoff would give him or her the responsibility; if not, either the new car manager (or assistant, if any) would have to carry the load. Or perhaps the finance manager; at the last dealership I worked at, the FM took over for the new car manager once during since a vacancy. ---
**Author:** ![howye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9adbd/32.png) [@howye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/howye)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-be-punished-in-this-workplace-violence-situation/710402/25 "2015-01-20T21:17:26Z")
Frank isn’t getting fired. He has a rock solid hostile work environment case, especially as he spoke with management about the issue and management ignored it. The situation was allowed to escalate by management and it has placed company in untenable position. Sure, Frank hit somebody but after a long series of provocative remarks designed to bother him mentally. As was said above, how do you think a jury is going to feel about the guy who popped Tony? No, Frank is going to get a couple of weeks of suspension with pay but without opportunity at any sales commissions or other incentives. Tony is let go, and if he agrees to not press charges the firing will not be for cause. He can collect his unemployment. IF he wishes to press charges against Frank, Tony will be fired for cause and will have to fight for his unemployment AND he will have his behavior documented and published when the story inevitably makes the local paper. Rumor is one thing, but a documented incident of driving a coworker to violence by referring to his daughter in a sexually suggestive manner is another. Mike is “promoted” to another position, non-customer facing and told he has six months to get another job. Alternatively, he could be offered the option of staying with a crap-ton of training - nah, move him along is the better option. Geoff and Steve both take time evaluate the management structure and their HR policies. Sexual harassment and other means of creating a hostile workplace need to be items of education for the new year. They need to enlist more assistance during the move to new facilities. Steve needs to find ways to rebuild trust both up and down the chain. Nobody in this hypo comes off clean of guilt. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-be-punished-in-this-workplace-violence-situation/710402/26 "2015-01-20T21:32:44Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’ve never been high enough in the hierarchy of a dealership to be sure how to answer that, but I doubt it. Geoff certainly _could_–he’s majority owner to, nobody’s gonna stop him–but from the sound of things it would be counter-productive. It just shifts the overwork to him rather than Steve. > > I dunno. Steve has certainly screwed up, but he’s being somewhat of mensch about it; he pointed out his culpability to Geoff without being prompted. I think he should get some points for that. > > And a demotion like that won’t work anyway. Bad for morale. I think I posted hereabouts about a manager at my current job who got demoted to sales staff, and the problems it caused. Unless it’s the employee’s desire, going from manager to staff is so fraught with problems I can’t recommend it. > > Won’t work either, at least not until the move is finished; it would just pile more work on Steve. If there’s an assistant used car manager, Geoff would give him or her the responsibility; if not, either the new car manager (or assistant, if any) would have to carry the load. Or perhaps the finance manager; at the last dealership I worked at, the FM took over for the new car manager once during since a vacancy. Fair enough - I am not a salesman. I like Steve - the idea of making him run used car was more of a slap on the wrist. If that’s a horrible idea, then whatever. He recognizes what he needs to do better. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-be-punished-in-this-workplace-violence-situation/710402/27 "2015-01-20T21:38:20Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I don’t think Frank _deserves_ to be fired. The statements about his wife were bad enough, but the one about his daughter? I think a reasonable man can be excused for losing his temper for that one, and it’s not reasonable to expect people to be Vulcans or saints. But yeah, from a business perspective, he probably should be, or at least punished, and in some real way. I’d Not to mention, he tried other venues, and clearly it didn’t work out for him. Can’t blame a man for having no hope. If I was Frank and you fired me I’d bring a wrongful termination suit to your door. Hopefully I would have documented all of Tony’s comments and all the times I went to my supervisor. Tony should be fired. Any company has a right to fire anyone and he is just poison. Mike should be demoted and Steve given his position, with the caveat that Steve is on a probationary period until he shows he is paying more attention. What a disgusting office altogether. As a woman, I’m sure I’d be busting down the doors to work at such a wonderful office. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-be-punished-in-this-workplace-violence-situation/710402/28 "2015-01-20T21:46:39Z")
fire all 4 - a) actual punch b) hostile workplace c) and (d) allowed (b) to proceed to (a) by not intervening. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-be-punished-in-this-workplace-violence-situation/710402/29 "2015-01-20T21:48:29Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Not to mention, he tried other venues, and clearly it didn’t work out for him. Can’t blame a man for having no hope. If I was Frank and you fired me I’d bring a wrongful termination suit to your door. Hopefully I would have documented all of Tony’s comments and all the times I went to my supervisor. > > Tony should be fired. Any company has a right to fire anyone and he is just poison. > > Mike should be demoted and Steve given his position, with the caveat that Steve is on a probationary period until he shows he is paying more attention. > > What a disgusting office altogether. As a woman, I’m sure I’d be busting down the doors to work at such a wonderful office. :rolleyes: From my experience, you would _not_ want to work at a car dealership in Memphis. The first one I worked at was after I left HR at my first Sears, and I was simply horrified by how female salespeople were treated. It was an obvious-to-me invitation to multiple lawsuits. There were three saleswomen there, two of whom were very attractive and one of whom was very young (only 17, in fact; only I and the GSM knew her actual age). She was a talented salesperson, but all the old-school salespeople gave her an endless ration of shit; she got accused, on the sales floor, of blowing her male customers in order to close deals. And this was in front of the GM, who did nothing but laugh. Damn, I hadn’t thought about that incident in years. Still makes me mad. The GSM was a good guy and helped me out in many ways, but the fact that he never acted to protect her still pisses me off (though I understand why). To the thread topic: I still think Frank has to be disciplined, but I’d call around to other dealerships (it’s a small community; all the GMs know each other) and help him get another job as well as making sure he got the big bonus. The former shouldn’t be hard if he’s such an ace salesperson. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-be-punished-in-this-workplace-violence-situation/710402/30 "2015-01-20T21:54:08Z")
On reread, I notice that Mike is not only a terrible manager and closely responsible (after Tony, of course) for the escalation–he also lied in the aftermath/investigation. Mike definitely needs fired. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-be-punished-in-this-workplace-violence-situation/710402/31 "2015-01-20T22:12:27Z")
I would hope the employee manual/handbook would cover at least part of this. Following the rules set out in the handbook is the best way to avoid any litigation. I don’t know if there is a slam dunk “hostile work place” lawsuit here, since the harassment, while obnoxious and disgusting, might not be covered by any specific law. It’s not targeted at the victim’s race, sex, religion, etc. I am too ignorant of sexual harassment law to know whether it can encompass this sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-be-punished-in-this-workplace-violence-situation/710402/32 "2015-01-20T22:15:35Z")
As much as I sympathize with Frank, I don’t think violence in response to words are ever appropriate in the workplace. I think he probably has to be fired (in addition to Tony, and possibly Mike). I don’t see how there can be any extenuating circumstances for someone punching someone else in the office over words. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-be-punished-in-this-workplace-violence-situation/710402/33 "2015-01-20T22:21:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > As much as I sympathize with Frank, I don’t think violence in response to words are ever appropriate in the workplace. I think he probably has to be fired (in addition to Tony, and possibly Mike). I don’t see how there can be any extenuating circumstances for someone punching someone else in the office over words. Oh, clearly it’s _inappropriate_. But it’s also understandable in this case. As I wrote upthread: it’s not reasonable to expect your employees to be either saints or Vulcans. Mike and Steve are more at fault than Frank here, because Frank tried to follow the chain of command but was let down. And Tony’s last crack about being willing to pay to fuck Frank’s teenage daughter? Them’s fighting words (ETA: by which I mean so flagrantly offensive that they were clearly intended to start a fight in the same way that a punch in the nads would be). Also ETA: I don’t understand the “possibly” qualifier when it comes to Mike. Of the four, he’s the one who most obviously has to be canned. ---
**Author:** ![Boogly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Boogly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boogly)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-be-punished-in-this-workplace-violence-situation/710402/34 "2015-01-20T22:22:42Z")
Mike’s job is in danger, like Top Gun danger-zone danger. It is his job to act in my (the company) best interest and I am looking into his ability to do this. I’d call a meeting with Frank first to see if there is anything that I can do to make the situation better. If he calls for Samuel Jackson ‘mushroom cloud layin mf’er’ extinction level event I will try to calm him down. I tell him we will have another meeting in two days, go home with pay and think about this issue. Meeting with Tony and let him know to update his resume and you are taking a personal interest in this issue. Go home for a couple days without pay to think about it. Take the couple days to consult a lawyer. Be very receptive to any options Frank has to make the situation better, not saying give in to crazy but being generous might be better than facing a lawsuit. ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-be-punished-in-this-workplace-violence-situation/710402/35 "2015-01-20T22:58:08Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > Frank DID follow the proper channels. The proper channels did not do their job. > > Legally, I believe “fighting words” is still a defense, so I don’t think Frank has legal problems to worry about. And honestly, if Tony sues, he better be prepared to try and defend suggesting that someone’s 14 year old daughter become a whore on the stand. I’m sure a jury will look real kindly on that. This. Tony deserved what he got. He’s lucky he still has his teeth. I wouldn’t worry about this whole story getting out because Tony is not going to want the world to know about his sportsmanship. He’s out the door. Frank gets an apology. Nothing else happens to Frank because anything further would appear to support Tony. Frank is not the one with the problem, everyone else is. Mike and Steve need some serious management training. Mike probably shouldn’t be management at all. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-be-punished-in-this-workplace-violence-situation/710402/36 "2015-01-20T23:09:05Z")
The only thing I’m sure about on first read is that Tony has to be fired. Your workers don’t have to be all buddy-buddy, but they should at least be able to tolerate one another, and a guy who’s actively poisoning the workplace environment has to go. And that’s without taking into account that the poisonous remarks took the form of extremely inappropriate comments about a co-worker’s wife and underage daughter. Taking that into consideration: firing with cause. And this being Memphis, he gets reminded that he’s lucky Frank settled it with his fists and not a shotgun blast. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-be-punished-in-this-workplace-violence-situation/710402/37 "2015-01-20T23:21:20Z")
This would be simpler if Geoff happened to own (or have an interest in) another nearby dealership. Were that the case, my recommendation is that Mike and Tony are fired, and Frank is suspended and returns to work at a different dealership where his (understandable, but inappropriate) behavior has not been witnessed by everyone. Steve screwed up, but seems to at least recognize that he’s done so. For the near term put Steve in Mike’s position and let Geoff cover Steve’s responsibilities - Geoff needs to be paying close attention to the selling floor for several months anyway, to see what other problems are brewing. If no other dealership exists, then Mike and Tony still get fired, and Steve demoted, and Frank still gets a suspension and a return to work on some sort of probation - this is less satisfactory than finding a new location for Frank, but still workable. ---
**Author:** ![Lorene89095](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@Lorene89095](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lorene89095)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-be-punished-in-this-workplace-violence-situation/710402/38 "2015-01-20T23:35:16Z")
Tony is fired,CPS is called,his relationship with his children is inspected,he is branded as a child molester. Frank is patted on the back and is promoted to management. Mike let his employees down… He is out of a job. Geoff and Steve need to go back to management school. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-be-punished-in-this-workplace-violence-situation/710402/39 "2015-01-20T23:57:29Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I don’t know if there is a slam dunk “hostile work place” lawsuit here, since the harassment, while obnoxious and disgusting, might not be covered by any specific law. It’s not targeted at the victim’s race, sex, religion, etc. I am too ignorant of sexual harassment law to know whether it can encompass this sort of thing. I don’t see why not. (IANAL) > [@EEOC](#): > > **Harassment can include** “sexual harassment” or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and **other verbal** or physical **harassment of a sexual nature.** > > Harassment does not have to be of a sexual nature, however, and can include offensive remarks about a person’s sex. For example, it is illegal to harass a woman by making offensive comments about women in general. > > **Both victim and the harasser can be either a woman or a man, and the victim and harasser can be the same sex.** > > Although the law doesn’t prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or isolated incidents that are not very serious, **harassment is illegal when it is so frequent or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment or when it results in an adverse employment decision (such as the victim being fired or demoted).** ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2015, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-be-punished-in-this-workplace-violence-situation/710402/40 "2015-01-21T00:18:54Z")
With Steve, do nothing. When you’re doing two people’s jobs, you’re going to drop a ball or two. And he admits to having blown it in this instance. If you’re Geoff, make sure Steve knows you’re taking the blame between the two of you for having put so much on his shoulders that he was bound to miss something, somewhere. With Mike and Frank, the first thing I’d want to do is talk to them each separately to get their recollections of what Frank told Mike about Tony’s hectoring. The fact that Frank tried to talk to Steve about it _suggests_ that Mike dismissed Frank’s concerns when he shouldn’t have, but it doesn’t settle it. But I don’t think we have enough information yet on them for making any decisions. If it becomes clear that Frank gave Mike a really minimal and sketchy version of what was going on, then Frank has to go, and Mike can stay where he is, but with some counseling. If Frank gave Mike all the lurid details, then Mike has to go. What I’d do with Frank under that circumstance, since as **yellowjacketcoder** said, “Frank DID follow the proper channels. The proper channels did not do their job,” is give Frank a week’s suspension without pay for hitting a co-worker, but slipping that week’s pay to him under the table with the comment that he’s not to mention it to a soul. But I’d make sure that the suspension took place over whichever days around Christmas you’d expect the fewest customers, since car sales are where Frank would normally get a big chunk (most? I’m not familiar with the workings of dealerships) of his pay. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-be-punished-in-this-workplace-violence-situation/710402.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-be-punished-in-this-workplace-violence-situation/710402.md?page=3)