# Who should (not will) win this election: Obama or Romney? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 29, 2012, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-not-will-win-this-election-obama-or-romney/623403 "2012-05-29T00:44:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-not-will-win-this-election-obama-or-romney/623403/61 "2012-06-04T21:23:56Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > Terr, what is your position with regard to same-sex marriage? The rights of women? Race? Are these issues that should be at the whim of local governments or do you believe the Federal Government has a responsibility here? The Federal Government should concern itself with the powers that are enumerated in article 1, section 8 of the Constitution. The rest should be local. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-not-will-win-this-election-obama-or-romney/623403/62 "2012-06-04T22:28:03Z")
> [@](#): > > The Federal Government should concern itself with the powers that are enumerated in article 1, section 8 of the Constitution. The rest should be local. You mean like imposing taxes to promote the general welfare? And if anything, it’s _easier_ to ignore politics here than in New Zealand. Doesn’t NZ have mandatory voting? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-not-will-win-this-election-obama-or-romney/623403/63 "2012-06-04T22:40:43Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I care about the US. When it gets screwed up, it is sad to watch. I don’t care as much (or at all, really) about most other countries. Then why **move** to another country? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-not-will-win-this-election-obama-or-romney/623403/64 "2012-06-04T22:47:39Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > You mean like imposing taxes to promote the general welfare? The interpretation that is a perversion of the Constitution. > [@](#): > > And if anything, it’s _easier_ to ignore politics here than in New Zealand. Doesn’t NZ have mandatory voting? No it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-not-will-win-this-election-obama-or-romney/623403/65 "2012-06-04T22:48:43Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Then why **move** to another country? Not to have to watch this one get screwed up more and more. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-not-will-win-this-election-obama-or-romney/623403/66 "2012-06-04T22:55:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The interpretation that is a perversion of the Constitution. The 16th Amendment, at any rate, is as much a part of it as the Bill of Rights. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-not-will-win-this-election-obama-or-romney/623403/67 "2012-06-05T00:26:44Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I’d be hesitant to uncritically accept that premise. Could you strengthen it some by actually answering the question **DrumBum** asked? > [@Terr](#): > > Sure. Same culture, same language, same currency, same customs, same documentation for education/citizenship/residency for intra-country mobility. Vs. different culture/language etc etc etc. for emigration. An that’s apart from the restrictions in immigration in various countries that need to be overcome. > > If you want numbers, here are some for intra-country mobility: [http://www.census.gov/hhes/migration/files/cps/cps2011/tab01-01.xls](http://www.census.gov/hhes/migration/files/cps/cps2011/tab01-01.xls) > > I am sure you will agree that the table shows much higher mobility numbers intra-country than emigration. So, I guess that’s a “NO” on answering the question **DrumBum** asked. > [@DrumBum](#): > > Might I inquire as to how this is done ? Given the weakness in the job and housing market in much of the US, I do not see much mobility amongst the population. ]Just checking. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-not-will-win-this-election-obama-or-romney/623403/68 "2012-06-05T00:31:04Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > So, I guess that’s a “NO” on answering the question **DrumBum** asked. > > ]Just checking. I can bring the horse to water. Can’t make it drink. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-not-will-win-this-election-obama-or-romney/623403/69 "2012-06-05T00:34:26Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I can bring the horse to water. Can’t make it drink. That much is true, of course. Even bringing the water to the horse is apparently no guarantee of success. :rolleyes: > [@DrumBum](#): > > Might I inquire as to how this is done ? Given the weakness in the job and housing market in much of the US, I do not see much mobility amongst the population. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-not-will-win-this-election-obama-or-romney/623403/70 "2012-06-05T03:02:37Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Kiwis do but I don’t have to and don’t intend to. And if I find NZ to be disagreeable, I have a couple of other countries to go to. Good luck being allowed in. I hope you either have the skills they are looking for under the skilled migrant category (especially experience in an "area of absolute skills) and can meet the points total, or you have $500,000 plus to invest in a business. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-not-will-win-this-election-obama-or-romney/623403/71 "2012-06-05T03:43:04Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I care about the US. When it gets screwed up, it is sad to watch. I don’t care as much (or at all, really) about most other countries. And your answer to this is to fuck off to somewhere you don’t care about. All class, aintcha, I’m sure NZ will be thrilled to receive your application saying that. Not to mention that NZ is far more “socialist” than the US (according to my friend who lived in the US for 8 years and now NZ for 6). Are you ready for actual real proper Government funded health care? Higher taxes? Special breaks for racial groups? > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Then why move to another country? > > Not to have to watch this one get screwed up more and more. You are aware that they have news services in NZ? Which mention US politics all the time? I’m sure your answer to this will be “but I won’t watch them”; couldn’t you just do that where you are? ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-not-will-win-this-election-obama-or-romney/623403/72 "2012-06-05T03:49:00Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > One place I am considering is New Zealand. And when asked why, I ask who the prime minister is over there. When people answer “I have no idea”, I say “Neither do I. That’s why”. You should probably learn more about politics over here. The National Party, the center-right party, raised the GST to 15%, and the minimum wage to $13/hr. The income tax is progressive, a 30% rate kicking in at $48k/year. The most recent election saw a significant amount of outrage at the prospect of selling off state-owned assets (such as majority ownership in Kiwibank and Air New Zealand). I’m just guessing you might find things a bit liberal for your tastes. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-not-will-win-this-election-obama-or-romney/623403/73 "2012-06-05T03:52:25Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Good luck being allowed in. > > I hope you either have the skills they are looking for under the skilled migrant category (especially experience in an "area of absolute skills) and can meet the points total, or you have $500,000 plus to invest in a business. Yes, I do. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-not-will-win-this-election-obama-or-romney/623403/74 "2012-06-05T03:54:08Z")
> [@Algorithm](#): > > You should probably learn more about politics over here. The National Party, the center-right party, raised the GST to 15%, and the minimum wage to $13/hr. The income tax is progressive, a 30% rate kicking in at $48k/year. The most recent election saw a significant amount of outrage at the prospect of selling off state-owned assets (such as majority ownership in Kiwibank and Air New Zealand). I’m just guessing you might find things a bit liberal for your tastes. Wouldn’t care. As I said, I don’t really care how screwed up New Zealand is or going to be in the future as long as I am comfortable. And as long as I can leave for another place when needed. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-not-will-win-this-election-obama-or-romney/623403/75 "2012-06-05T04:31:30Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Wouldn’t care. As I said, I don’t really care how screwed up New Zealand is or going to be in the future as long as I am comfortable. And as long as I can leave for another place when needed. We will be sure to evaluate your political arguments in this thread and others in light of your expressed sense of civic responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-not-will-win-this-election-obama-or-romney/623403/76 "2012-06-05T04:44:15Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > We will be sure to evaluate your political arguments in this thread and others in light of your expressed sense of civic responsibility. Knock yourself out. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-not-will-win-this-election-obama-or-romney/623403/77 "2012-06-05T13:44:08Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Wouldn’t care. As I said, I don’t really care how screwed up New Zealand is or going to be in the future as long as I am comfortable. And as long as I can leave for another place when needed. So you’re so upset with what you see as unfair taxes, liberal policies and government overreach in the United States that you plan to emigrate in protest, quite possibly to a country with higher taxes, even more liberal policies and greater government control. Yep, can’t get any more airtight than that. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-not-will-win-this-election-obama-or-romney/623403/78 "2012-06-05T15:08:56Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > So you’re so upset with what you see as unfair taxes, liberal policies and government overreach in the United States that you plan to emigrate in protest, quite possibly to a country with higher taxes, even more liberal policies and greater government control. When I move, taxation minimization will be one of the goals. mostly on capital gains. I don’t much care about “liberal policies” and “government control” - as I said, as long as I can leave any time I want, “government control” doesn’t matter. And no, my moving will not be “in protest”. It will be because US will lose its unique place that it had for people like me when I was growing up as a bulwark against tyranny, a beacon of individual freedom in the sea of collectivism, a counterpoint to the European hive mentality. Once it does, there’s no reason to stay. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-not-will-win-this-election-obama-or-romney/623403/79 "2012-06-05T16:24:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > This is not a prediction-thread, we already have half a dozen of those running in the Elections forum. This is an argument-thread. Who will be better for America as POTUS in the 2013-2017 term, Obama (Dem) or Romney (Pub)? Pick your man/party/side and state your case. (If you want to argue for an independent or a third-party nominee, please do it elsewhere, we’re having a serious discussion here, and this is not an election like 1992 or 2000 where any independent bid will be a game-changer.) I will certainly be voting for a third-party candidate this November. However, if some bizarre set of circumstances forced me to vote for one the two major-party nominees, I would probably choose Romney. I don’t say so lightly, as I’ve been a lifelong Democrat up to this point (except for that one time when I voted for Ralph Nader). The two big things that turned me against Obama are his totally unwillingness to seriously acknowledge the problem of the national debt, much less do anything about it, and his attack on religious freedom by requiring health care plans purchased by religious institutions cover birth control. On the former issue, while he’s given lip service to the existence of the debt, actions speak louder than words. Obama’s budget forecasts show trillion-dollar deficits for years to come. He keeps proposing more spending in ways that are ridiculous and wasteful. Things like high-speed trains sound spiffy, but sometimes when you’re facing a coming financial catastrophe, you have to acknowledge reality. His proposal to solve the debt by raising taxes on billionaires is pure political theater. The tax hike that Congressional Democrats voted on earlier this year would erase, to the nearest percent, zero percent of the deficit. Speaking of political theater, the birth control mandate is a classic example: an intrusive “solution” to a non-existent problem, serving no purpose other than to stoke a culture war battle and distract people away from the administration’s failures in other areas. Obama might as well have telegraphed us an announcement that he’s no longer interested in uniting the country, but is instead hoping to spark as many fights between his administration and interest groups as possible. As for other issues, there are remarkably few differences between Romney and Obama worth noticing. Both intend to maintain a useless military-industrial complex almost as large as that of the rest of the world combined, to keep having a bellicose foreign policy, to ignore civil rights, to spend hundreds of billions on corporate pork, and for the most part to maintain the status quo in Washington. The only area where Obama’s stances are clearly preferable is global warming and the environment, but while he may be pointed in the right direction, his policies aren’t moving us very far in that direction. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-not-will-win-this-election-obama-or-romney/623403/80 "2012-06-05T17:07:06Z")
As a Catholic, seeing women come under fire because the church is run by a bunch of idiots, I consider it a moral imperative that Obama wins, and wins handily. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-not-will-win-this-election-obama-or-romney/623403.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-not-will-win-this-election-obama-or-romney/623403.md?page=5)