# Who should pay Reparations to African Americans? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 19, 2019, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753 "2019-06-19T16:52:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/201 "2019-06-20T18:59:10Z")
> [@MulderMuffin](#): > > I cannot find evidence that segregation was ever a US law. In 1870, after the end of the Civil War, the US passed the Civil Rights Act of 1875 forbidding racial segregation in accommodations. Now, many states had laws allowing or mandating segregation, but not the US government. So, no, I do not believe that the US is culpable in the existence of segregation. **But even if they were** , while there would be a to quantify **who** was harmed, the extent of the harm, or assessing a reasonable value of the harm would be all but impossible. The US government allowed segregation for many decades, just as it allowed discriminanatory policies against women. I believe the US government is equally culpable for allowing discriminatory policies against black people as it is for allowing discriminatory policies against women. Do you believe the US government is culpable for allowing discriminatory policies against women? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/202 "2019-06-20T18:59:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I agree – a program specifically targeting police killings would need to make sure there are no more disparate unjust killings any more. > > But for something like segregation, or Redlining, those are already over – we could certainly study the effects those had on living Americans, and consider the possible ways we might address any lingering harm. What should be our priority? Addressing past problems like redlining, school segregation, and slavery? Or addressing current ongoing problems like police shooting, disproportionate sentencing, and disenfranchisement? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/203 "2019-06-20T19:00:21Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > What should be our priority? Addressing past problems like redlining, school segregation, and slavery? Or addressing current ongoing problems like police shooting, disproportionate sentencing, and disenfranchisement? I believe we can do multiple things at once. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/204 "2019-06-20T19:11:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > … > For a very small number of Americans, perhaps. There are many Americans who suffered under Redlining but did not benefit from those lawsuits. The ability was there, it is not MY fault if they didnt take advantage of it. You want _me_ to pay for that? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/205 "2019-06-20T19:13:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The ability was there, it is not MY fault if they didnt take advantage of it. You want _me_ to pay for that? No, I advocate for study and research that might result in a US government program to provide redress for the harm done by these discriminatory policies. If you believe this was appropriate for the harm done to living Americans by Japanese-American internment, then ISTM it would logically follow that you would agree that it would be appropriate for the harm done to living Americans by discriminatory policies against black people. ---
**Author:** ![MulderMuffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldermuffin/32/2862_2.png) [@MulderMuffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MulderMuffin)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/206 "2019-06-20T19:13:49Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > What if it wasn’t “impossible”? What if it was entirely possible? Would you be in support then? I really can’t answer that, because I cannot see anything that would make it possible to know the value or likelihood of an alternative future if the past was different. It is too hypothetical. I agree that people were harmed and disadvantaged. I don’t agree that we logically or fairly can do anything except change going forward. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/207 "2019-06-20T19:14:24Z")
> [@MulderMuffin](#): > > I really can’t answer that, because I cannot see anything that would make it possible to know the value or likelihood of an alternative future if the past was different. It is too hypothetical. > > I agree that people were harmed and disadvantaged. I don’t agree that we logically or fairly can do anything except change going forward. But you believe differently for discriminatory policies against women? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/208 "2019-06-20T19:24:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > He said explicitly he’s open to exploring any harm done by past discriminatory policies, against any group of people. But if you’re not interested in reading his writing, then there’s probably not much possibility of productive discussion that’s largely based on his writing. > … 1. Actually the Op was about **McConnell opposes paying reparations: ‘None of us currently living are responsible’ for slavery** , TNC wasnt even mentioned. 2. TNC talks in meaningless generalities and homilies. Let me know when he comes up with a exact figure of how much the checks should be (and if he says no checks should be written, great, let me know that also, not just “well, _maybe_ payments \*could \*\*possibly \*be indirect, \*like perhaps \*programs…”), who gets them (_How do we identify who is “black”)_- Just Blacks? Natives? Women? Chinese? Irish? Gays? Hispanics? Everyone? , who pays, etc. \*\*Specifics. \*\* 3. Because he is trying a scam, imho. “Lets get everyone to agree reparations should be paid- _then_ hit them with the bill!”. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/209 "2019-06-20T19:25:14Z")
> [@MulderMuffin](#): > > I really can’t answer that, because I cannot see anything that would make it possible to know the value or likelihood of an alternative future if the past was different. It is too hypothetical. > > I agree that people were harmed and disadvantaged. I don’t agree that we logically or fairly can do anything except change going forward. Is time spent doing an investigation into the harms caused and resulting impact, even if the latter can only be a reasonable estimate, much like we do with estimating the value of $1 in 1919 vs 2019? Say take the average white male in 1919 vs the average black male and estimate their lifetime income, adjusting for various known variables. Would that information be of value? If not, why not? Is the mere fact that we already know the disparity would be self evident sufficient to not do the study on a thorough and significant scale? ---
**Author:** ![MulderMuffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldermuffin/32/2862_2.png) [@MulderMuffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MulderMuffin)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/210 "2019-06-20T19:25:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But you believe differently for discriminatory policies against women? No, I don’t. The past was horrible to women. They were as much property of their fathers and husbands as slaves were the property of their owners. They had less rights than African American men throughout much of US history. It was wrong, but it was changed. If I am discriminated against or harassed now I will fight or sue or both. My daughter will have a much better future than I had, as I had a better one than my mother. That is my reparation. And I truly, sincerely believe that with all my heart. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/211 "2019-06-20T19:26:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > 1. TNC talks in meaningless generalities and homilies. Let me know when he comes up with a exact figure of how much the checks should be (and if he says no checks should be written, great, let me know that also, not just “well, _maybe_ payments \*could \*\*possibly \*be indirect, \*like perhaps \*programs…”), who gets them (_How do we identify who is “black”)_- Just Blacks? Natives? Women? Chinese? Irish? Gays? Hispanics? Everyone? , who pays, etc. \*\*Specifics. \*\* > 2. Because he is trying a scam, imho. “Lets get everyone to agree reparations should be paid- _then_ hit them with the bill!”. This is not terribly convincing coming from someone who got key points about TNC’s advocacy wrong and said about TNC “He’s is too long and too full of bullshit to read.” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/212 "2019-06-20T19:27:47Z")
> [@MulderMuffin](#): > > No, I don’t. The past was horrible to women. They were as much property of their fathers and husbands as slaves were the property of their owners. They had less rights than African American men throughout much of US history. It was wrong, but it was changed. If I am discriminated against or harassed now I will fight or sue or both. My daughter will have a much better future than I had, as I had a better one than my mother. That is my reparation. And I truly, sincerely believe that with all my heart. Fair enough. I believe past discriminatory policies that harmed living Americans should be studied in detail, and programs that are meant to make up for the harm done should be analyzed and considered. Thanks for taking the time to discuss this. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/213 "2019-06-20T19:29:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How was this harm fixed? Do you mean segregation ended? > > I suppose this must mean that you opposed reparations for the Japanese American internees, then, since that was “fixed” as much as segregation (i.e. it ended). > > All reasonable to consider. Thanks! Where, tell me, are we going to get all this money? Social security’s in jeopardy, our health care system is a nightmare, our air quality is shit, etc. But we have money to pay off every group that’s been oppressed in the past? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/214 "2019-06-20T19:30:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, I advocate for study and research that might result in a US government program to provide redress for the harm done by these discriminatory policies. If you believe this was appropriate for the harm done to living Americans by Japanese-American internment, then ISTM it would logically follow that you would agree that it would be appropriate for the harm done to living Americans by discriminatory policies against black people. We could identify the Japanese Americans who were put into the camps. How do we identify who is “black”? And in actuality, I opposed the reparations for the Japanese Americans for this very reason. “well we paid _them_, so we should pay everyone else” even tho that is totally bogus reasoning. 1. The Japanese Americans were harmed by a specific act by the US Government, not vague issues of “discriminatory policies”. 2. The Japanese Americans who were interned were easily identifiable, the Japanese Americans in Hawaii who were not interned didnt get reparations. The two are totally different and comparing them “\*well we paid them, so we should pay everyone else” \*is totally bogus reasoning. Anyone who makes that argument is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/215 "2019-06-20T19:30:14Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Where, tell me, are we going to get all this money? Social security’s in jeopardy, our health care system is a nightmare, our air quality is shit, etc. But we have money to pay off every group that’s been oppressed in the past? > > :dubious: Reasonable concerns that certainly ought to be considered before any such program of reparations were instituted. This is the kind of question that would be a huge part of the research and discussion phase, which would be extensive and come before any actual payments. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/216 "2019-06-20T19:33:14Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > 1. Actually the Op was about **McConnell opposes paying reparations: ‘None of us currently living are responsible’ for slavery** , TNC wasnt even mentioned. > > 2. TNC talks in meaningless generalities and homilies. Let me know when he comes up with a exact figure of how much the checks should be (and if he says no checks should be written, great, let me know that also, not just “well, _maybe_ payments \*could \*\*possibly \*be indirect, \*like perhaps \*programs…”), who gets them (_How do we identify who is “black”)_- Just Blacks? Natives? Women? Chinese? Irish? Gays? Hispanics? Everyone? , who pays, etc. \*\*Specifics. \*\* > > 3. Because he is trying a scam, imho. “Lets get everyone to agree reparations should be paid- _then_ hit them with the bill!”. TNC reminds me of that other guy with initials for a name… I know!.. MLK. Total dreamer and scam artist with the long flowery letters and speeches. How do we define what he meant by equal rights and for who? - Just Blacks? Natives? Women? Chinese? Irish? Gays? Hispanics? Everyone? He’s dangerous! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/217 "2019-06-20T19:34:27Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > We could identify the Japanese Americans who were put into the camps. Similarly, we could identify black Americans who were harmed by living in areas that suffered under segregation or other discriminatory policies. > [@](#): > > And in actuality, I opposed the reparations for the Japanese Americans for this very reason. “well we paid _them_, so we should pay everyone else” even tho that is totally bogus reasoning. > > 1. The Japanese Americans were harmed by a specific act by the US Government, not vague issues of “discriminatory policies”. Many other living Americans were harmed by specific acts by the US government (or state and local governments), such as segregation, Redlining, law enforcement discrimination, and much more. > [@](#): > > 1. The Japanese Americans who were interned were easily identifiable, the Japanese Americans in Hawaii who were not interned didnt get reparations. It would be possible to identify the victims of segregation and other discriminatory actions in a similar way – publicize to invite people to come forward and tell their stories (just like was done for Japanese-American internees), check their records, references, and interview them, and cross-reference with other records and interviews to determine whether their reports are accurate and honest. > [@](#): > > The two are totally different and comparing them “\*well we paid them, so we should pay everyone else” \*is totally bogus reasoning. Anyone who makes that argument is wrong. I agree with this to some extent – this is a very complicated issue and can’t be summed up in such a casual and flippant way. Thanks for taking the time for this discussion! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/218 "2019-06-20T19:37:06Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is not terribly convincing coming from someone who got key points about TNC’s advocacy wrong and said about TNC “He’s is too long and too full of bullshit to read.” Please show me where he listed any\* specifics.\* I waded thru his last article on this, I am not gonna waste my time for more of the same bullshit. It’s nice he threw in a offhand mention of native americans. Did he mention gays, women, hispanics, Irish (I know he will never mention them) , Chinese, and so forth? And “he also offhandedly threw in native Americans” isnt getting _key points about TNC’s advocacy wrong_. I read his other article. Lists of bad things done to black people. No mention of things done to right those wrongs already- he went on and on about redlining, altho that wasnt a US government policy and he, _oddly_, failed to mention that was fixed and many blacks sued and collected. He is a scamster. And a racist. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/219 "2019-06-20T19:38:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Similarly, we could identify black Americans who were harmed by living in areas that suffered under segregation or other discriminatory policies. > … > > … > > I agree with this to some extent – this is a very complicated issue and can’t be summed up in such a casual and flippant way. Thanks for taking the time for this discussion! How do we identify who is\*\* black\*\*? I have asked this over and over. What is your answer? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/220 "2019-06-20T19:38:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Please show me where he listed any\* specifics.\* I waded thru his last article on this, I am not gonna waste my time for more of the same bullshit. It’s nice he threw in a offhand mention of native americans. Did he mention gays, women, hispanics, Irish (I know he will never mention them) , Chinese, and so forth? > > And “he also offhandedly threw in native Americans” isnt getting _key points about TNC’s advocacy wrong_. > > I read his other article. Lists of bad things done to black people. No mention of things done to right those wrongs already- he went on and on about redlining, altho that wasnt a US government policy and he, _oddly_, failed to mention that was fixed and many blacks sued and collected. > > He is a scamster. And a racist. LOL. Okay, I’ll keep this entirely inaccurate representation of TNC’s writing in mind in the future in our discussions. I can’t help but recall how many white Americans called MLK Jr. similar names in the 1960s, just for speaking out publicly in ways they didn’t like. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753.md?page=12)