# Who should pay Reparations to African Americans? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 19, 2019, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753 "2019-06-19T16:52:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/281 "2019-06-21T16:13:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If rape was legal in the US (say, marital rape) at some point, then the US government bears some culpability for any rapes that it considered legal. In a purely legal sense, I must disagree. If rape was legal, not just in _all_ forms of civil law but also in common law at the time, the government is not at all culpable. The law may change so that the government has a duty to prevent rape, but unless you toss the prohibition on _ex post facto_ laws, the government would have no culpability for rapes already perpetrated by third parties. Even a physical person could not be prosecuted _ex post facto_ for committing a physical act of rape if said act was fully legal at the time. Applying the analogy to slavery, let us assume _arguendo_ that the year is 1866 and we are judges in a civil case brought by a freedman against his former master and the state of Missouri, call the case _Slave v. Master_. Petitioner asks for monetary damages from defendants for his former enslavement from 1838 to 1865 and a failure of the state to prevent such enslavement. Defendents counter by pointing out the fact that petitioner had no standing to sue because for the whole duration of petitioner’s servitude slavery was legal; Missouri did not ratify Amendment XIII until February 6, 1865 and that amendment did not take effect until December 18, 1865; petitioner was set free on February 12, 1865. Petitioner argues that the text of Amendment XIII clearly shows that the amendment applies retroactively, but defendants say such an interpretation is unsound and goes against the principle of _lex mitior_. Petitioner points to the Emancipation Proclamation, signed on January 1, 1863, and says that his continued servitude from 1863 to 1865 was illegal. Defendants countered that the Emancipation Proclamation did not apply to slaves in Missouri because Missouri was not in a state of rebellion. As a judge, what is your verdict? Because I would dismiss the case. Now let’s apply the analogy to redlining. “If [racism] was legal in the US (say, [redlining]) at some point, then the US government bears some culpability for any [racism] that it considered legal.” _If_ redlining was legal, I take that to mean it was _actually_ legal in common law and civil law at the time it was performed, there exists no legal culpability. Not for the government, not even for the private companies who actually discriminated. The point of all of this is that legally speaking, an obligation to pay reparations can never develop from a fully legal act. You can and should argue that redlining was not legal, and thus injury resulting from those acts may be redressed in court, up to the statute of limitations. The time to sue for redlining has probably passed. In a strictly legal sense, reparations for slavery itself is baseless. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/282 "2019-06-21T16:15:42Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > In a strictly legal sense, reparations for slavery itself is baseless. My argument is a moral one, and we as a country have the power (as we did for the Japanese American internees) to determine that the government is indeed legally responsible – we can pass a bill saying so. You’re probably right that lawsuits would fail under the basis you argue – that’s why I don’t think lawsuits are the right path for this to be accomplished. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/283 "2019-06-21T16:27:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > My argument is a moral one, and we as a country have the power (as we did for the Japanese American internees) to determine that the government is indeed legally responsible – we can pass a bill saying so. You’re probably right that lawsuits would fail under the basis you argue – that’s why I don’t think lawsuits are the right path for this to be accomplished. I can see that you are passionate about this issue, and your motivation is honorable. But we as a country do not have the power to determine that the government is legally responsible, not without destroying the principle of _lex retro non agit_. I think you would be better off leaving out the legal arguments and sticking to moral arguments. You might say “the federal government should pay reparations to African Americans because we as a country treated them immorally for so many years”. Then you can have the debate as to whether slavery was once moral and whether people now should be responsible for moral atrocities then. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/284 "2019-06-21T16:31:51Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I can see that you are passionate about this issue, and your motivation is honorable. But we as a country do not have the power to determine that the government is legally responsible, not without destroying the principle of _lex retro non agit_. I think you would be better off leaving out the legal arguments and sticking to moral arguments. We’ve already done this (or at least functionally done it), with reparations to Japanese American internees. If we didn’t use this exact legal principle, then that’s not relevant to my case. Obviously what I advocate can legally be accomplished, since this has already occurrred. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/285 "2019-06-21T16:32:07Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > In a purely legal sense, I must disagree. > > The point of all of this is that legally speaking, an obligation to pay reparations can never develop from a fully legal act. You can and should argue that redlining was not legal, and thus injury resulting from those acts may be redressed in court, up to the statute of limitations. The time to sue for redlining has probably passed. In a strictly legal sense, reparations for slavery itself is baseless. > > ~Max Discrimination against Jews was[legal and state sponsored in Germany 1933-1945](https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/anti-jewish-legislation-in-prewar-germany). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/286 "2019-06-21T16:52:14Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > The point of all of this is that legally speaking, an obligation to pay reparations can never develop from a fully legal act. You can and should argue that redlining was not legal, and thus injury resulting from those acts may be redressed in court, up to the statute of limitations. The time to sue for redlining has probably passed. In a strictly legal sense, reparations for slavery itself is baseless. I think there’s a strong legal counterargument that our government is our representative. So if society as a whole is responsible for racism (and I feel there’s a strong argument that this is true) then our government is the entity which should pay on our collective behalf. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/287 "2019-06-21T17:56:04Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > … I can’t help but feel that if I can contribute to the overall improvement of my fellow man that has suffered an institutional social injustice, I should. Because that would make for a better (more just) society. It puzzles me that otherwise intelligent and well meaning people often don’t see it that way as well. Is there anything in particular in any of my prior posts here or otherwise that suggests I (or other people opposed to “reparations”) oppose the overall improvement of persons who suffered institutional social injustices? Or perhaps you are distinguishing me from the class of “intelligent and well meaning people” - which may be valid! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/288 "2019-06-21T18:05:28Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Is there anything in particular in any of my prior posts here or otherwise that suggests I (or other people opposed to “reparations”) oppose the overall improvement of persons who suffered institutional social injustices? I suppose I include, as a starting point, the openness to evaluation of whether reparations ought to be considered as part of the overall attempt at improvement for those who have suffered institutional injustices. I don’t think that admission of collective “guilt” should be applied (implied?) in addition. > [@Dinsdale](#): > > Or perhaps you are distinguishing me from the class of “intelligent and well meaning people” - which may be valid! 😃 Certainly never my intention. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/289 "2019-06-21T18:16:18Z")
> [@Clu-Me-In](#): > > So if I can prove to you and show you evidence that I am a direct descendant of 2 slaves, you do not believe I am owed anything - not even an apology?:dubious::mad: Nope because YOU were not a slave. What injury did YOU suffer due to slavery? ---
**Author:** ![Clu-Me-In](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@Clu-Me-In](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clu-Me-In)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/290 "2019-06-21T18:28:30Z")
> [@Isosleepy](#): > > I think the analogy to the Japanese internment reparations is false. Those were paid to the actual individuals interned (those still alive, at least). > I’m an immigrant. I just got here. I don’t feel I owe reparations to anyone for stuff done when none of my ancestors were in this hemisphere. I don’t think compensation on the basis of having certain genetic or outward characteristics is fair or just. No, you’re not, but the government that you’re party to owes that debt. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/291 "2019-06-21T18:31:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I have no interest in going after the innocent in any way at all, any more than giving reparations to the Japanese-American internees was “going after the innocent”. Again, for the nth time thats a False equivalency. Please stop using it. That was a defined single act, done by the US government, and the cash was paid to discrete identifiable individuals. The reparations to Black would be for vague and undefinable acts, none of which were perpetuated directly by the uS government, and be paid to a vague and undefinable group of people. In any case there’s a huge difference between “100,000 people of Japanese descent who were incarcerated in internment camps during World War II. The legislation offered a formal apology and paid out $20,000 in compensation to each surviving victim”= $200M and the $14 trillion which reparations would cost us. $200M meant nothing to my tax bill. $14T would triple it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/292 "2019-06-21T18:34:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If y’all really want all of these questions answered, why do you oppose a study that could actually answer them? > Are you afraid of the answers? No study could answer them. It would just enrage those who didnt get that million dollar check and those who fear that taxes would triple to give it. It would perpetuate scams by the dozens, preying upon those would would thing they are entitled to a $1000000 check. False hopes. How could we define 'black" without being racist as all fuck? ---
**Author:** ![Clu-Me-In](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@Clu-Me-In](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clu-Me-In)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/293 "2019-06-21T18:36:32Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Who indeed. This thread seems to revolve around the US culpability, but I wonder if folks realize that Europe was mainly responsible. Even after they had washed their own hands (well, at home anyway) of slavery, they were the main beneficiaries of US (and other) plantation slavery, as most of goods went to their markets for processing and refinement. Especially cotton. Hell, the British industrial revolution was driven to a large extent by US cotton. The North, of course, also benefited hugely because of Southern cotton, even while they (sort of kind of) opposed slavery. Then you have the fact that many other cultures were part of the slave trade, including African tribes and Arab slavers. So…who pays? Why is the discussion only about the US paying for this when the material benefits to slavery were reaped by MANY countries, especially in Europe? Well, because no one else is seriously troubled about this fact and everyone wants to blame the young US for it of course. > > No, I don’t think the US should pay reparations to African Americans. If a number of countries want to put money in a pot to try and pay reparations for slavery then I would say the US should too, proportional to the benefit we gained from it. This isn’t an insubstantial benefit, mind…it pretty much made the US a (small) economic power at the time and paved the way for our own industrialization as well as capitalization of the nation. But the US alone wasn’t responsible for slavery, and we were far from the top beneficiaries of it. > > Now, I DO think a case can be made for Native American reparations and that the US is mainly responsible for our actions on those populations both in the past and today (though several European nations should also be doing something, especially Spain, the UK and France, though not limited to those nations). I also think that Native American populations today are still materially suffering from this in extreme ways that black Americans aren’t. I’m not trying to lessen the amount of racism and bigotry on black Americans by any means, but to me it’s not comparable to how badly the Native American’s have and are suffering…and this IS mainly on the the US. The direct benefits have also accrued to the vast majority of Americans as we kind of got a continent sized nation state and all it’s goodies in the bargain. You in essence watered down the topic in order to easily and flippantly dismiss it cos the problem is too big for you to comprehend from your perch. Your bottomline is… yeah and meh, it was worse for the natives and we haven’t really done a thing for them so screw the blacks. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/294 "2019-06-21T18:37:00Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Again, for the nth time thats a False equivalency. Please stop using it. That was a defined single act, done by the US government, and the cash was paid to discrete identifiable individuals. The reparations to Black would be for vague and undefinable acts, none of which were perpetuated directly by the uS government, and be paid to a vague and undefinable group of people. I have no interest in reparations “for vague and undefinable acts”, but rather for specific discriminatory policies, like segregation, Redlining, and more. And I believe the US government bears some culpability for the things that it allows to legally occur in the country. > [@](#): > > In any case there’s a huge difference between “100,000 people of Japanese descent who were incarcerated in internment camps during World War II. The legislation offered a formal apology and paid out $20,000 in compensation to each surviving victim”= $200M and the $14 trillion which reparations would cost us. $200M meant nothing to my tax bill. $14T would triple it. These reparations were also paid to the heirs of Japanese-American internees if the victim was deceased. And that a random internet person has suggested a price tag of $14T tells us nothing about what an in-depth and rigorous program of research and study might lead to. I plan to keep using this example, because it demonstrates that reparations can in fact be undertaken successfully. I’m sorry if this bothers you. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/295 "2019-06-21T18:38:59Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I suppose I include, as a starting point, the openness to evaluation of whether reparations ought to be considered as part of the overall attempt at improvement for those who have suffered institutional injustices. I don’t think that admission of collective “guilt” should be applied (implied?) in addition. > > … My impression is that certain groups desire the assignment of guilt, nearly as much as they desire actual redress. I’m sure many may disagree. My preference is that society address ALL who are least advantaged, rather than focusing on how they got there, and whether their family/racial/ethnic/cultural history makes them more or less deserving/needy. Avoids the need to debate and draw as many lines. Also, focusses on the present and the future, rather than the past. I favor tossing lines to ALL who are drowning, as VASTLY preferable to “studying” whether some are more deserving that others of being saved, or deserve different types of saving methods. But some apparently prefer to allocate resources differently. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/296 "2019-06-21T18:40:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It depends on the definition and usage of these words. I believe the US government pay, just as it paid reparations for Japanese-American internment. Do you believe that program was “making the innocent pay”? I don’t, but YMMV. The US government cant pay. All of us, the American taxpayers are the only ones who can pay. Are you willing to see your tax bill tripled? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/297 "2019-06-21T18:41:05Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > My impression is that certain groups desire the assignment of guilt, nearly as much as they desire actual redress. I’m sure many may disagree. > > My preference is that society address ALL who are least advantaged, rather than focusing on how they got there, and whether their family/racial/ethnic/cultural history makes them more or less deserving/needy. Avoids the need to debate and draw as many lines. Also, focusses on the present and the future, rather than the past. > > I favor tossing lines to ALL who are drowning, as VASTLY preferable to “studying” whether some are more deserving that others of being saved, or deserve different types of saving methods. But some apparently prefer to allocate resources differently. I think this should happen along with identifying, in detail, and fully acknowledging, the harm done to living Americans, directly and indirectly, by discriminatory policies and practices. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/298 "2019-06-21T18:44:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ve said that the goal of reparations is to make America stronger, better, and more just in the future, by mitigating the possibility of a permanent aggrieved black underclass. This does not conflict with reparations being targeted at addressing past wrongs – the existence of these past wrongs, and that they have not been fully acknowledged and addressed, is what increases the chance of this permanent aggrieved black underclass in the future, in my opinion. … When the Million dollar checks arent forthcoming- **and they CAN’T be forthcoming-** then you will certainly have a aggrieved black underclass. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/299 "2019-06-21T18:44:10Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The US government cant pay. I reject this premise. We don’t know what such a commission might find. They may advocate increased investment (hospitals, schools, infrastructure, etc.) and permanent jobs programs in majority black cities and neighborhoods, which might be well within our fiscal capabilities. Or something no one has thought of yet. In fact, I see no reason to believe such a comission wouldn’t advocate for something within our capabilities, since their goal would be _a policy that is feasible to accomplish_. You’re not even willing to study it. Are you not interested in the scope of the harm done to your fellow Americans, in detail? > [@DrDeth](#): > > When the Million dollar checks arent forthcoming- **and they CAN’T be forthcoming-** then you will certainly have a aggrieved black underclass. Can you read everyone’s minds, or just black people? Is that how you determined (baselessly and with no cites) that TNC is a “scamster” and a “racist”? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/300 "2019-06-21T18:46:48Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I have no interest in reparations “for vague and undefinable acts”, but rather for specific discriminatory policies, like segregation, Redlining, and more. And I believe the US government bears some culpability for the things that it allows to legally occur in the country. > > These reparations were also paid to the heirs of Japanese-American internees if the victim was deceased. And that a random internet person has suggested a price tag of $14T tells us nothing about what an in-depth and rigorous program of research and study might lead to. > > I plan to keep using this example, because it demonstrates that reparations can in fact be undertaken successfully. I’m sorry if this bothers you. Redlining for the nth time, was settled by black suing and collecting. Few of these were actual acts of the uS government, in fact Redlining wasn’t, that was banks. You keep using it after it’s been totally debunked. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753.md?page=16)