# Who should pay Reparations to African Americans? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 19, 2019, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753 "2019-06-19T16:52:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/401 "2019-06-24T17:12:17Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > The reparations to Japanese Americans was only $20,000. Not much considering the had California real estate taken from them that would be worth millions today. Right! Even with this relatively modest sum, survivors of internment and their heirs, in addition to Japanese Americans in general, broadly feel that they are fully equal members of American society with a fair chance at success (according to my understanding of polling). So this is an example that can show us that reparations meant to acknowledge and make redress for harm done such that a group will have good reason to feel like truly equal members of American society don’t have to break the bank. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/402 "2019-06-24T17:17:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > $22 trillion wasn’t an effort to heal the damage? The programs you described were not, in my understanding. There was no detailed study of the harm done, no acknowledgement of this harm, no focused study of how to “heal” this harm, etc. > [@](#): > > How do we determine that reparations aren’t also just pulling out the knife? What would make them different? Detailed study of the harm done, acknowledgement of this harm, focused study of how to heal this harm, etc. > [@](#): > > This is what I meant by waffling. You aren’t advocating for it, but you assert it would be fantastically beneficial. Does this mean you aren’t prepared to explain why it would be so fantastically beneficial, or are you going to retreat back to “we just want to study”? It’s my understanding of Adam Smith/Econ 101 – giving money to the members of a poor community benefits that community economically. It would encourage local spending, which would lead to local investment and innovation, etc. Normal capitalism stuff when people have more money to spend. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/403 "2019-06-24T17:18:52Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Yes, and correspondingly, the economic loss suffered by a non-black community footing the tax bill would be substantial as well. Not as much as the benefit, because the economic loss would be spread out over a wider taxpayer base (since in this hypothetical, 87% of taxpayers would be paying taxes to give reparations to the 13% of Americans who are black,) but the increase in taxes would mean that a non-black community would have less money to pay bills, less money to afford medical care, less money to spend, less money to upgrade homes, and there would be a downturn for business. > > There is no such thing as a free lunch. This is possible, but there are ways to spend money without increasing taxes – reduce spending in other areas and printing more money, both of which are done in many circumstances today. There are some circumstances in which those methods are ultimately beneficial and some in which they are not. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/404 "2019-06-24T17:20:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Part of the idea is to avoid an aggrieved underclass. Most poor people in the US are not black (a disproportionate amount, but not most). So we should study giving money to some of the poor so they aren’t aggrieved. What about the rest - do we care if they’re aggrieved? Do they have to wait until we are done studying if black people get cash, or do we include them too? I’m attempting to address a specific type of harm – that caused by discriminatory policies and practices of the US government. I’m certainly open to studying other types of harm, and other groups harmed aside from black and Native Americans. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/405 "2019-06-24T17:23:21Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Hypotheticals are fine but you do at least owe your idea the courtesy of considering the implications. > > Are there any 100% black neighbourhoods? If so and those are the ones you go with then prepare yourself for unrest in the neighbourhoods that are only 99.9% black. Or of course if a few white families are going to prevent that payout by having the temerity to live in a majority black neighbourhood then watch their lives be made a living hell or worse. > Or you could always include those 99.9% areas but just not pay out to those not black enough. Or pay out to the white people as well and stand by for unrest in underprivileged areas that aren’t demographically suitable. > > I don’t think I’m scaremongering here. The above is pretty much guaranteed to play out if you implement any cash reparation scheme. > > My suggestion? restated here and echoed by others in the thread is that you abandon any racial component to this at all. > Give support to the poorest areas that need it most. Funding for schools, jobs, medical care, infrastructure. Do it on the basis of need and clearly badge it as a sign of an equal society. If the claim that the black community has been most disadvantaged is true then the bulk of that support will naturally go to the black community without any need to set up divisive racial criteria. I think this could be a very valid approach, and I’d certainly consider it. But I think the first step of identifying, in great detail, the harm done directly and indirectly to living Americans today, fully acknowledging the US government’s responsibility and role in that harm, and apologizing for it in full, is necessary first. Once that is done, we could evaluate multiple proposals for how to make up for this harm, including everything offered in this thread and countless more. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/406 "2019-06-24T18:07:26Z")
Should study of reparations for non-black poor people, and other aggrieved groups, be included in the HR 40 bill? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/407 "2019-06-24T18:10:09Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Should study of reparations for non-black poor people, and other aggrieved groups, be included in the HR 40 bill? I don’t believe so (since each research project will necessarily require different expertise, I think it would be most prudent to have a different program for each proposal), but I’m open to any arguments to the contrary. If anyone actually supports the bill (as opposed to just playing devil’s advocate) and thinks that more groups should be included in HR 40, I’d be interested in hearing their arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/408 "2019-06-24T18:43:17Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Should study of reparations for non-black poor people, and other aggrieved groups, be included in the HR 40 bill? > > Regards, > Shodan Only if your purpose is to kill the bill. Is it? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/409 "2019-06-24T19:00:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > He’s not “illustrating” this, he’s just asserting it. Reparations for Japanese-American internees didn’t lead to boundless reparations for anyone that asks for it – in fact, it’s led to _zero reparations_ for any other group so far. I’m sure opponents of these past reparations used similar arguments, but it was irrelevant then and it’s still irrelevant now – that was the right thing to do, and more importantly, it _made American stronger, better, and more just_. > > I find the slippery-slope argument unconvincing. You’re right they didnt- yet. But _you_ are using Reparations for Japanese-American internees to justify reparations for Blacks and Native Americans. And no one can deny that women, gays, Chinese, hispanics were disadvantaged too. Ponies for everyone! \*\*You are the one on the slippery slope. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/410 "2019-06-24T19:01:24Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > My suggestion? restated here and echoed by others in the thread is that you abandon any racial component to this at all. > > Give support to the poorest areas that need it most. Funding for schools, jobs, medical care, infrastructure. Do it on the basis of need and clearly badge it as a sign of an equal society. If the claim that the black community has been most disadvantaged is true then the bulk of that support will naturally go to the black community without any need to set up divisive racial criteria. Yes, because, as I’ve already said, there are others to consider besides the Black community. Native Americans absolutely have to be taken into account. Also, there are communities in the heartland where the people were basically sold down the river by corporations wanting to get rich via dirt cheap labor overseas. Many were completely disenfranchised and have never recovered. If you’re going to do this at all, that is the only methodology that I can see that would have a chance to work. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/411 "2019-06-24T19:01:44Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > For the sake of your own argument, you really should disconnect reparations for Japanese-Americans and African-Americans. As others have pointed out, they are two different things with two different, distinct circumstances and illustrate the fallacy of your argument… I pointed this out several times. But apparently he only has one arrow in his quiver, he has to keep using it.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/412 "2019-06-24T19:04:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > … > > As I’ve said before, I’ll be ecstatic if the US just decided it was going to fully investigate, document, acknolwedge, and apologize for past discriminatory policies and practices. That hasn’t been done, needs to be done, and wouldn’t involve paying anyone but researchers and historians. The possibility of going beyond that to actually trying to make up for this harm, in some way, financially, is extremely remote, even if it’s crept up a bit lately in polling. … Because apologies aint checks. Coates wants checks, and until now, you havent abandoned that crazy idea. Once the foolish idea of bankrupting the nation and taking \*all the money \*from the straight white males has been totally abandoned, we can talk apologies. Heck, even some more college grants and aid to inner cities, sure. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/413 "2019-06-24T19:06:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Apparently you’ve missed that, over and over again, I’ve been pushing that after the research/study phase, any warranted reparations would start with those living Americans who have been harmed by discriminatory policies and practices (segregation, Redlining, and more). … > There are some differences – internment was a direct policy by the federal government, while segregation was a direct policy by state and local governments (tolerated by the federal government), and Redlining was generally private action tolerated or encouraged by the federal government using discriminatory Federal government maps that deliberately downgraded black neighborhoods. … And you cant drop Redlining even tho it has been shown that victim could and did sue the banks for those policies- and collected. Redlining has been solved by new laws and the courts. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/414 "2019-06-24T19:09:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Because apologies aint checks. Coates wants checks, and until now, you havent abandoned that crazy idea. Cite that “Coates wants checks” – or is this just another baseless allegation, like your cite-free vitriolic attacks that Coates is a “scamster” and a “racist”? > [@](#): > > Once the foolish idea of bankrupting the nation and taking \*all the money \*from the straight white males has been totally abandoned, we can talk apologies. This is just pure straw-man garbage. > [@DrDeth](#): > > And you cant drop Redlining even tho it has been shown that victim could and did sue the banks for those policies- and collected. In some cases, but certainly not all. Not even close to most, by my reading. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/415 "2019-06-24T19:09:37Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > The reparations to Japanese Americans was only $20,000. Not much considering the had California real estate taken from them that would be worth millions today. AFAIK, those assets were _frozen_, not taken away. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/416 "2019-06-24T19:11:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t believe so (since each research project will necessarily require different expertise, I think it would be most prudent to have a different program for each proposal), but I’m open to any arguments to the contrary. If anyone actually supports the bill (as opposed to just playing devil’s advocate) and thinks that more groups should be included in HR 40, I’d be interested in hearing their arguments. So the purpose is not merely to avoid an aggrieved underclass, just an aggrieved black underclass, and the others have to wait their turn. Do the other groups need to wait until the reparations study for blacks is done? If not, why not include them in HR 40 as well? Why is studying aggrieved white poor people more difficult than studying black ones? Or Hispanics, or Asians, or Jews, or gay people, or women, or any other group? What special expertise is needed to determine that the US government tolerated slavery (until it outlawed it) and discrimination against black people (until 1964) and therefore the US taxpayer is on the hook, vs. the US government tolerating discrimination against women? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/417 "2019-06-24T19:16:40Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So the purpose is not merely to avoid an aggrieved underclass, just an aggrieved black underclass, and the others have to wait their turn. Do the other groups need to wait until the reparations study for blacks is done? If not, why not include them in HR 40 as well? Why is studying aggrieved white poor people more difficult than studying black ones? Or Hispanics, or Asians, or Jews, or gay people, or women, or any other group? What special expertise is needed to determine that the US government tolerated slavery (until it outlawed it) and discrimination against black people (until 1964) and therefore the US taxpayer is on the hook, vs. the US government tolerating discrimination against women? How would you prioritize the different groups? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/418 "2019-06-24T19:18:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So the purpose is not merely to avoid an aggrieved underclass, just an aggrieved black underclass, and the others have to wait their turn. The purpose of reparations for discrimination and oppression against black people is to avoid a permanent aggrieved black underclass. The purpose of reparations for discrimination and oppression against Native Americans is to avoid a permanent aggrieved Native American underclass. I focus on those two because those are the groups that I’m aware of that, statistically, appear to be in danger of being a permanent aggrieved underclass. If you believe any other groups might become “permanent aggrieved underclasses”, then I’d be interested in which other groups you believe this is accurate for, and whether you believe it has anything to do with widespread discrimination and oppression. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/419 "2019-06-24T19:23:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So the purpose is not merely to avoid an aggrieved underclass, just an aggrieved black underclass, and the others have to wait their turn. Do the other groups need to wait until the reparations study for blacks is done? If not, why not include them in HR 40 as well? Why is studying aggrieved white poor people more difficult than studying black ones? Or Hispanics, or Asians, or Jews, or gay people, or women, or any other group? What special expertise is needed to determine that the US government tolerated slavery (until it outlawed it) and discrimination against black people (until 1964) and therefore the US taxpayer is on the hook, vs. the US government tolerating discrimination against women? Yep. We can all agree that huge checks wont be coming. But that’s what people have been talking about. So, since big checks are impossible, and people expect big checks, then iiandyiiii idea of a study and apology will just lead to a aggrieved black underclass. Reparations are a bad idea, no matter how you slice them. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/420 "2019-06-24T19:27:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > We can all agree that huge checks wont be coming. But that’s what people have been talking about. So, since big checks are impossible, and people expect big checks, then iiandyiiii idea of a study and apology will just lead to a aggrieved black underclass. Excellent take down of another straw man! I also find it notable that you, apparently, can read the minds of all black people and believe that they would react immaturely to “a study and apology”. Have you always thought so negatively about black people as a whole, or only recently? When did you start having such negative beliefs about black people, or am I misunderstanding what you are saying? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753.md?page=22)