# Who should pay Reparations to African Americans? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 19, 2019, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753 "2019-06-19T16:52:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/481 "2019-06-28T20:06:59Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Taxpayers would have standing, as I just said. So would other people (even white people) affected by redlining. The specific constitutional violation is the due process clause of the Fifth Amendment. I’ve bolded the relevant text: > > **No person shall be** held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be **deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law** ; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation\*\*.\*\* > > Which forms the sentence: > > No person shall be… deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law. > > The Supreme Court has held that this clause, by way of reverse incorporation, makes the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment binding upon the federal government (see _Bolling v. Sharpe_, 347 U.S. 497, 1954; also _Lawrence v. Texas_, 539 U.S. 558, 2003). > > The equal protection clause itself reads: > > No State shall… deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. > > The Supreme Court has ruled on the basis of the equal protection clause that states cannot give preference to minorities without passing strict scrutiny. They have explicitly rejected the possibility of a state passing a discriminatory law that remedies societal, rather than discrete discrimination. I quote from _City of Richmond v. J.A. Croson Co._, 488 U.S. 469 (1989): > > In sum, none of the evidence presented by the city points to any identified discrimination in the Richmond construction industry. We, therefore, hold that the city has failed to demonstrate a compelling interest in apportioning public contracting opportunities on the basis of race. To accept Richmond’s claim that past societal discrimination alone can serve as the basis for rigid racial preferences would be to open the door to competing claims for “remedial relief” for every disadvantaged group. The dream of a Nation of equal citizens in a society where race is irrelevant to personal opportunity and achievement would be lost in a mosaic of shifting preferences based on inherently unmeasurable claims of past wrongs. “Courts would be asked to evaluate the extent of the prejudice and consequent harm suffered by various minority groups. Those whose societal injury is thought to exceed some arbitrary level of tolerability then would be entitled to preferential classifications…” _Bakke_, 438 U. S., at 296-297 (Powell, J.). We think such a result would be contrary to both the letter and spirit of a constitutional provision whose central command is equality. > > The same logic applies to the federal government due to reverse incorporation of the equal protection clause. The federal government cannot give preferential treatment to African Americans just because they were discriminated against by society. Alternatively, the federal government cannot give preferential treatment to all minority groups just because African Americans were discriminated against by society (the case with _City of Richmond v. J.A. Croson Co._). You have to overcome strict scrutiny by showing a compelling reason, a specific injustice inflicted upon the African American race to the exclusion of all others, by the federal government, according to the law at the time. > > ~Max But this isn’t what I’ve advocated for, even hypothetically. If research found that the government deprived person X (or many such persons) of wealth Y, then the legislature could easily (procedurally speaking) pass a bill providing redress for that harm to those people. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/482 "2019-06-28T20:23:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But this isn’t what I’ve advocated for, even hypothetically. If research found that the government deprived person X (or many such persons) of wealth Y, then the legislature could easily (procedurally speaking) pass a bill providing redress for that harm to those people. In that case you had better drop off the African American component of the bill, and just say the U.S. government will pay reparations for anybody who claims to have been disadvantaged by private institutions due to color-coding on HOLC maps. Then the federal government could send funds to all current and former residents of neighborhoods that received “hazardous” designations. You would need to scale reimbursement according to the private discrimination that actually occurred in each neighborhood and possibly each house in that neighborhood, during the time the claimant was residing there. Anything less, I’m afraid, risks running afoul of the constitution. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/483 "2019-06-28T20:25:55Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > In that case you had better drop off the African American component of the bill, and just say the U.S. government will pay reparations for anybody who claims to have been disadvantaged by private institutions due to color-coding on HOLC maps. > > Then the federal government could send funds to all current and former residents of neighborhoods that received “hazardous” designations. You would need to scale reimbursement according to the private discrimination that actually occurred in each neighborhood and possibly each house in that neighborhood, during the time the claimant was residing there. > > Anything less, I’m afraid, risks running afoul of the constitution. > > ~Max I’m unconvinced, but open to any strategy to learn the details of history and achieve justice. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/484 "2019-06-28T20:54:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m unconvinced, but open to any strategy to learn the details of history and achieve justice. There is a saying, “for a big leak, fix the leak, then bail the water”. The injustice isn’t that the federal government drew racism onto their maps (if they did that). The injustice isn’t even that people in those neighborhoods were denied loans. The injustice is that lenders and builders and service providers unfairly discriminated against those neighborhoods. That problem has been fixed _de jure_, but by now the whole boat has sunk. And you want to start to bail out water from the bottom of the sea floor! Now that the leak is fixed (or at least manageable), the people of this country can bail their own boats, if only they weren’t completely submerged. Have you considered lifting those neighborhoods up by subsidizing social services, hospitals, federal loans, and retail operations in low-end neighborhoods? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/485 "2019-06-28T21:37:51Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > There is a saying, “for a big leak, fix the leak, then bail the water”. The injustice isn’t that the federal government drew racism onto their maps (if they did that). The injustice isn’t even that people in those neighborhoods were denied loans. The injustice is that lenders and builders and service providers unfairly discriminated against those neighborhoods. That problem has been fixed _de jure_, but by now the whole boat has sunk. And you want to start to bail out water from the bottom of the sea floor! > > Now that the leak is fixed (or at least manageable), the people of this country can bail their own boats, if only they weren’t completely submerged. Have you considered lifting those neighborhoods up by subsidizing social services, hospitals, federal loans, and retail operations in low-end neighborhoods? > > ~Max All of that is reasonable to consider, and I think reparations (or equivalent) are as well. ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/486 "2019-06-28T22:38:58Z")
I love how **Max** keeps providing you with reasonned and cited examples of why reparations would be legally difficult and tou think, “I am unconvinced because I thinkbit is moral and therefore supercedes, and can done be without consideration of, the established precedents and procedures of the legal and legislative processes.” In what world does that constitute a defensible opinion let alone a set in stone stance? Take a hint from the near universal dissent your thinking has engendered and consider if it is everyone else that hasn’t thought enough about this or you. You start with an assumption that you hold to be inviolable and refuse to acknowledge that the assumption itself is flawed. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/487 "2019-06-28T22:40:22Z")
> [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](#): > > I love how **Max** keeps providing you with reasonned and cited examples of why reparations would be legally difficult and tou think, “I am unconvinced because I thinkbit is moral and therefore supercedes, and can done be without consideration of, the established precedents and procedures of the legal and legislative processes.” > > In what world does that constitute a defensible opinion let alone a set in stone stance? > > Take a hint from the near universal dissent your thinking has engendered and consider if it is everyone else that hasn’t thought enough about this or you. > > You start with an assumption that you hold to be inviolable and refuse to acknowledge that the assumption itself is flawed. What assumption? That this stuff should be studied? No one has presented a good argument that this stuff MUST NOT be studied. ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/488 "2019-06-28T23:44:39Z")
No, but they have presented a great many arguments why the issue itself is the problem no matter how much you study it. The assumption you insist we all act upon is that reparations are morally just and required. The only person who agrees with those assertions is you. You don’t give a damn about the realities - both moral and legal - you scream, “reparations must be made!” and when people raise rational and legitimate arguements against your dictum you duck behind, “I’m just saying study it.” No you’re fucking not mate and we all know it - you most of all. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/489 "2019-06-28T23:50:23Z")
> [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](#): > > No, but they have presented a great many arguments why the issue itself is the problem no matter how much you study it. > > The assumption you insist we all act upon is that reparations are morally just and required. The only person who agrees with those assertions is you. > > You don’t give a damn about the realities - both moral and legal - you scream, “reparations must be made!” and when people raise rational and legitimate arguements against your dictum you duck behind, “I’m just saying study it.” > > No you’re fucking not mate and we all know it - you most of all. I’m not insisting we act upon that assumption. I’m hopeful that a solid program of research and study might persuade the skeptical, but I’m not assuming that. In all likelihood, none of this will happen, even the study and research. Hopefully I’m wrong about a permanent aggrieved black underclass. ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/490 "2019-06-28T23:53:19Z")
You’re not wrong about it. You’re wrong about the cause and the solution. You are also confusing righteous upset with articulable, defensible, fact based conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/491 "2019-06-28T23:56:22Z")
> [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](#): > > You’re not wrong about it. You’re wrong about the cause and the solution. You are also confusing righteous upset with articulable, defensible, fact based conclusion. Maybe you’re right, but I’m not convinced by these brief assertions. ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/492 "2019-06-29T00:02:28Z")
Nor are you convinced by lengthy erudite ones. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/493 "2019-06-29T00:28:08Z")
> [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](#): > > Nor are you convinced by lengthy erudite ones. Why should I be? It’s all supposition. It’s based on differing assumptions. We’ve drilled down to where the differences are, for the most part, in this long thread – some folks don’t think the government is responsible; some folks think the government is responsible but there’s no way to pay; some think there’s a way to pay but it would do no good; etc. ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/494 "2019-06-29T00:37:19Z")
Wouldn’t the logical 1st step be to decide whether they should be paid in the 1st place? Why study something that shouldn’t be done? The fact is that Martin Luther King could materialize in frontvof you and say, “Reparations are a bad, unworkable plan.” And your response would be, “Gee MLK, I’m not convinced and I just wanna stuuuuuudy it. Can’t we please just study how they must be done and the implementation will be easy because moral and words. Just study it.” You will not be convinced, dissuaded or even budged minutely. You don’t want to debate you want to proslytize. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/495 "2019-06-29T00:47:54Z")
> [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](#): > > Wouldn’t the logical 1st step be to decide whether they should be paid in the 1st place? Why study something that shouldn’t be done? That’s part of the goal of the study – is this possible? Could it do some good? What would it look like? > [@](#): > > The fact is that Martin Luther King could materialize in frontvof you and say, “Reparations are a bad, unworkable plan.” And your response would be, > > “Gee MLK, I’m not convinced and I just wanna stuuuuuudy it. Can’t we please just study how they must be done and the implementation will be easy because moral and words. Just study it.” > > You will not be convinced, dissuaded or even budged minutely. You don’t want to debate you want to proslytize. Actually, I’d oppose a reparations plan, if it was put forward now with no comprehensive advanced study and research. So I think your attempt to read my mind is failing you. I’m convinced we should study and research. I lean towards reparations as being necessary, but I’m far from convinced or certain – and I wouldn’t be until such study and research was complete. It might well even change my mind against reparations. ---
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/496 "2019-06-29T01:17:53Z")
I oppose wasting money on a study about a flawed concept. Other Africsn Americans have become successful. It is possible with the right attitude and mind set. ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/497 "2019-06-29T02:14:00Z")
He remains unconvinced. Perhaps a study on the desirability and probable outcome of the study on reparations is in order. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/498 "2019-06-29T02:44:39Z")
Are any details forthcoming as to what (how, etc.) is specifically studied in this reparations study? ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/499 "2019-06-29T03:15:17Z")
I am not convinced that can be done without first conducting research into the degree of specificity the study will encompass. ---
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/500 "2019-06-29T03:28:59Z")
> [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](#): > > I am not convinced that can be done without first conducting research into the degree of specificity the study will encompass. Have we determined where the funding for these studies will come from?? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753.md?page=26)