# Who should pay Reparations to African Americans? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 19, 2019, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753 "2019-06-19T16:52:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/101 "2019-06-20T01:21:46Z")
I think the analogy to the Japanese internment reparations is false. Those were paid to the actual individuals interned (those still alive, at least). I’m an immigrant. I just got here. I don’t feel I owe reparations to anyone for stuff done when none of my ancestors were in this hemisphere. I don’t think compensation on the basis of having certain genetic or outward characteristics is fair or just. If we can identify specific victims of specific actions of the federal government, I can agree they are owed. Black men being sentenced to longer sentences than whites for the same crime? That seems identifiable to me - I can support them being compensated. Laws to address gerrymandering and vote suppressing in certain states? Long overdue- not sure if we can ever adequately compensate for a lost vote, but if states were forced to pay even a token amount _to those proven to have been unjustly kept from voting_, I think it would at least send a message. Not agreeing wth TNC on this subject does not mean denying real problems exist, or that they need addressing. It is also not a case of the proposed solution not being entirely perfect, so lets do nothing. It is that the proposed solution is a crock of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/102 "2019-06-20T01:22:38Z")
> [@Clu-Me-In](#): > > So if I can prove to you and show you evidence that I am a direct descendant of 2 slaves, you do not believe I am owed anything - not even an apology?:dubious::mad: Correct, in my case. To me, reparations (if we’re talking about direct payments to descendants of slaves) would be insulting and demeaning. Uncle Sam: “Here ya go.” Reparations recipient: “What, that’s supposed to make everything better?” mmm ---
**Author:** ![neutro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc8723/32.png) [@neutro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutro)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/103 "2019-06-20T01:31:37Z")
Interestingly when slavery was outlawed in Britain they actually paid the slave owners for having to give up their “property” at the time. Anyway all of the slaves are long gone as are the slave owners. In addition the northern states paid a tremendous price in blood and treasure fighting the south to end slavery. Overall I’m not a big fan of reparations for the wrongs of history. I predict this would actually cause more disruption than healing. Bottom line is that the last slave died a long time ago. If we had wanted to compensate them we waited too long. ---
**Author:** ![El\_DeLuxo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_deluxo/32/9043_2.png) [@El\_DeLuxo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_DeLuxo)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/104 "2019-06-20T03:58:45Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > TNC calls America “a collective enterprise that extends beyond our individual and personal reach”, and thus every taxpayer would be involved, in the same way that every taxpayer is involved with every American government expenditure. That sounds like an attempt to rationalize the notion of collective guilt to me. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/105 "2019-06-20T04:26:59Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > In 2017, the median household income for blacks was a little over $40,000. How on earth is that middle class? > > [https://www.pgpf.org/blog/2018/09/income-and-wealth-in-the-united-states-an-overview-of-data](https://www.pgpf.org/blog/2018/09/income-and-wealth-in-the-united-states-an-overview-of-data) Based on the definition of “median” that means half of African-American households had incomes over $40,000/yr. That’s pretty good; it implies serious participation in the economy. It represents more than I earn in Canada with a university degree. I presume the lower half of the scale represents people stuck in the social circumstances that poverty has dealt them. So I’ll re-iterate - the solution is not to hand out cheques, the solution is to continue doing what America was doing from the New Deal to Johnson’s Great Society and forward, using the wealth of the USA to give all poor and underprivileged the opportunities needed to help them get ahead, programs to mitigate the circumstances that lead to dead ends like addiction and crime, support for the changes that make life a bit more bearable for those stuck in poverty. Those initiatives will help in some way to correct past sufferings, which is what the goal of any good social spending will do - and will help all people, but proportionately more of those groups more heavily stuck in poverty. If you want to get technical, the USA does not owe reparations, the individual states that permitted slavery and brought the institution into the union are in fact the active parties culpable. But then, most of those legal entities were dissolved at the end of the Civil War and replaced a few years later by brand new entities, effectively absolved of liability by a process akin to bankruptcy or death for an individual. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/106 "2019-06-20T05:03:45Z")
> [@Clu-Me-In](#): > > So if I can prove to you and show you evidence that I am a direct descendant of 2 slaves, you do not believe I am owed anything - not even an apology?:dubious::mad: One of my ancestors was a refuge driven out of Ireland by the Great Famine. He enlisted in the Union Army at the very beginning of the Civil War. He was eventually captured in battle and died of scurvy in Andersonville Prison Camp, leaving a destitute widow and two small children. Another ancestor, a German immigrant, also enlisted in the Union Army at the start of the war, was captured, and became a permanent invalid from tuberculosis he got in prison camp. Another ancestor also served in the Union Cavalry. Do you owe me anything because my ancestors fought and died, at great sacrifice to my family, to free your ancestors? If not, why not? And if you are owed reparations, shouldn’t I get reparations from the UK for driving my ancestors out of Ireland? ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/107 "2019-06-20T05:24:10Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I agree with this. If reparations are paid, then any future complaints about racism will be met with “We gave you reparations, now shut up!” I mean, it’s not like that _doesn’t_ happen now. See “black people are equal under the law therefore racism is solved also something something affirmative action is making whites the oppressed class.” I feel like this is a really bad argument. Of **course** people are going to use any action to help a minority as justification for not helping that minority further because “they got enough”, it happens with **every** bit of aid we give. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/108 "2019-06-20T05:38:02Z")
The idea that one would improve a society by forcing people that had no hand or say in past wrong doings to pay money on the basis of racial lines makes as much sense as using napalm to put out a fire. At best it exposes a profound lack of understanding of human nature. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/109 "2019-06-20T09:35:41Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > IIRC, those were given to the actual internees, not their descendents, or just Japanese Americans in general. TNC, and I, have advocated for reparations for government policies that harmed living Americans (which has been mentioned over and over again in this thread). ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/110 "2019-06-20T11:40:50Z")
We’ve spent over $22 trillion on poverty reduction programs since 1964, not including Social Security and Medicare ([cite](https://www.heritage.org/poverty-and-inequality/report/the-war-poverty-after-50-years)), which would need to be deducted from the total amount paid in reparations. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/111 "2019-06-20T11:43:44Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > We’ve spent over $22 trillion on poverty reduction programs since 1964, not including Social Security and Medicare ([cite](https://www.heritage.org/poverty-and-inequality/report/the-war-poverty-after-50-years)), which would need to be deducted from the total amount paid in reparations. > > Regards, > Shodan This is an impressively effort-free non-sequitir. A single sentence that has pretty much nothing to do with the topic of the thread. I like turtles! ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/112 "2019-06-20T11:57:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is an impressively effort-free non-sequitir. A single sentence that has pretty much nothing to do with the topic of the thread. > > I like turtles! I disagree. I think he’s got a point - you just don’t like it. Before we all spend tens and tens of trillions of dollars more, what is the goal? And more importantly, how will you know that you’ve reached your goal and we can end your program? To be clear, much of the ~$22T that **Shodan** noted above (if that’s accurate) was indeed to address many or some of the sins of slavery. So if that has been such an abject failure 45 years, how is your program going to be different? Why will this succeed while other programs didn’t? What will you add or detract from this to ensure it’s success? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/113 "2019-06-20T12:18:11Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > I disagree. I think he’s got a point - you just don’t like it. > > Before we all spend tens and tens of trillions of dollars more, what is the goal? And more importantly, how will you know that you’ve reached your goal and we can end your program? > > To be clear, much of the ~$22T that **Shodan** noted above (if that’s accurate) was indeed to address many or some of the sins of slavery. So if that has been such an abject failure 45 years, how is your program going to be different? Why will this succeed while other programs didn’t? What will you add or detract from this to ensure it’s success? The goal is to make America stronger, better, and more just and fair (which I’ve said before, multiple times in this thread). The goal of a stronger, better, more just/fair America never ends – just like the goals of fighting hatred, or crime, or poverty, or racism, or misogyny, never end (most likely, anyway). I’m unaware of all efforts at fighting poverty being “abject failures”. Again, all TNC and I have argued for, at this time, is a detailed and good-faith study about the harm that various US government policies and practices have done to black Americans, the affects on living Americans, and discussion about what actions might possibly be taken to remedy and address this harm. That’s the first step, and the only reasonable step that could be taken at this time. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/114 "2019-06-20T12:33:25Z")
Nice piece of tap dancing. Would you care to address the point? The US government has spent $22 trillion on anti-poverty programs. Black people in the US make up a disproportionate amount of the poor in America. Therefore, a disproportionate amount of the $22T went to living Americans who were (allegedly) poor because of racism and discrimination. What percentage of the $22T should be deducted from the reparations because it has already been paid? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/115 "2019-06-20T12:34:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So you opposed reparations for Japanese American internees, I presume? No, I didn’t. But proving the harm to Japanese internees is and was easily proved. Proving harm to those affected by slavery or how they were affected by laws a generation or more ago is a tad more difficult. If they wanted to try their case in civil court with documentation to prove said harm, I would not be against them winning. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/116 "2019-06-20T12:34:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > TNC, and I, have advocated for reparations for government policies that harmed living Americans (which has been mentioned over and over again in this thread). This doesn’t seem entirely unreasonable to me. Germany and France have paid billions since 1948 in reparations to Holocaust survivors and, in some cases, to immediate descendants. These actions have had [US support as recently as 2016](https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/us-begins-paying-out-french-reparations-to-holocaust-survivors-and-their-heirs/2016/09/15/87b1de56-7abb-11e6-bd86-b7bbd53d2b5d_story.html?utm_term=.791369eceb30). To the extent that American society can offer an apology and make a fair and reasonable attempt to make reparations to the remaining living survivors and immediate descendants for more recent apartheid and related harmful policies, I think it ought to do so. You can’t right a 350 year old wrong. But you can try to address wrongs committed in living memory of the surviving victims and, lets face it, perpetrators. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/117 "2019-06-20T12:37:10Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Nice piece of tap dancing. Would you care to address the point? > > The US government has spent $22 trillion on anti-poverty programs. Black people in the US make up a disproportionate amount of the poor in America. Therefore, a disproportionate amount of the $22T went to living Americans who were (allegedly) poor because of racism and discrimination. > > What percentage of the $22T should be deducted from the reparations because it has already been paid? > > Regards, > Shodan I disagree with your premise that anti-poverty programs were meant to be a remedy for racism and discrimination. But for the moment, I’ll assume that this might be accurate – if so, the answer is “I don’t know”, since all I’m advocating for (once again) is some rigorous and good-faith research into the harm done by US government policies and practices suffered by black Americans (including living Americans), and how this might be remedied. Any past programs that were meant to remedy the harm done by discrimination and racism should certainly be part of that research and discussion. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/118 "2019-06-20T12:38:32Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > No, I didn’t. But proving the harm to Japanese internees is and was easily proved. Proving harm to those affected by slavery or how they were affected by laws a generation or more ago is a tad more difficult. > > If they wanted to try their case in civil court with documentation to prove said harm, I would not be against them winning. Once again, TNC and I have advocated for research into the harm done by US government policies and practices, like redlining and segregation, which harmed living Americans. If you think reparations for the Japanese-American internees was appropriate, do you not agree that reparations for other discriminatory and oppressive policies that harmed living Americans might be worth studying and considering? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/119 "2019-06-20T12:53:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I disagree with your premise that anti-poverty programs were meant to be a remedy for racism and discrimination. Are reparations meant to be a remedy? > [@](#): > > …the answer is “I don’t know”, since all I’m advocating for (once again) is some rigorous and good-faith research into the harm done by US government policies and practices suffered by black Americans (including living Americans), and how this might be remedied. So now you’re not sure it was the maps. How do you propose the US government prove that it was, or was not, a given policy that disadvantaged some specific, living black American? What constitutes “rigorous and good faith”, in your view? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/120 "2019-06-20T12:59:58Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Are reparations meant to be a remedy? To some degree, yes. Such things can never be 100% fixed, but I believe it’s still right to try. And of course, the primary goal is to make America stronger, better, and more just. > [@](#): > > So now you’re not sure it was the maps. ??? No idea what you’re referring to here. I didn’t say anything about the maps in this post. > [@](#): > > How do you propose the US government prove that it was, or was not, a given policy that disadvantaged some specific, living black American? Rigorous research, including detailed looks at official and private records, interviews, and anything more that might be relevant. It’s easy to show how policies like slavery harmed someone, it might be slightly harder but still possible to show how a policy like segregation or redlining affected someone (i.e. these folks were in substandard schools, had a reduced chance of getting into college or graduating, an increased chance of getting involved with crime, etc.). It wouldn’t be an easy process but I believe we could learn a lot and it would be worthwhile. > [@](#): > > What constitutes “rigorous and good faith”, in your view? A broadly similar level of effort, at least at the beginning, compared to the 9/11 commission (and other official investigations into 9/11), perhaps. Obviously not everyone will have the same definition of “rigorous and good faith”, so I’d evaluate every prospective plan as to its own merits. Thank you for these thoughtful questions; I appreciate when you put effort into engagement rather than just snark. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753.md?page=7)