# Who should pay Reparations to African Americans? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 19, 2019, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753 "2019-06-19T16:52:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/161 "2019-06-20T17:51:06Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Huh? Reparations for Japanese American internees were given to those Japanese Americans who were interned. TNC and I are advocating studying the possibility of giving reparations for Redlining and segregation to those Americans who were harmed by Redlining and segregation. Why is that a bad analogy? Both efforts are targeted directly towards living people who were harmed by discriminatory government policy. Ok, how many living people were harmed by redlining? Since that is something you can directly find, please tell us how to go about determining if they were harmed or not. Then we would need to know how they were harmed, and at what cost that may have caused. I’m thinking this number is going to be tiny ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/162 "2019-06-20T17:55:09Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Ok, how many living people were harmed by redlining? Since that is something you can directly find, please tell us how to go about determining if they were harmed or not. Then we would need to know how they were harmed, and at what cost that may have caused. > > I’m thinking this number is going to be tiny If so, should be a very inexpensive program. I’d go about this by passing something like HR 40, set up a commission of historians and researchers who can dig into records and conduct interviews, with lots of publicity to invite people to come forward and tell their stories. With a combination of historical records, private records and correspondence, and interviews, and lots of hard work, we should be able to identify with some level of confidence those living Americans who lived in areas that were economically depressed by Redlining policies, as well as (possibly) those Americans who specifically denied loans or loan assistance due to these discriminatory policies. Just the first steps, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/163 "2019-06-20T17:57:02Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > In other words, we can’t trust those egg-headed scientists and data analysts to know how to do their jobs and control/account for the variances; Morons the lot. Why even give them the chance to do the study? You are correct that I am not just going to take TNC or the person claiming the $33K difference at their word, especially if I am going to have to come up with trillions. I am disinclined to simply hand my wallet to some activist and say “Help yourself - tell me when you are done”. YMMV. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/164 "2019-06-20T17:57:45Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Huh? Reparations for Japanese American internees were given to those Japanese Americans who were interned. TNC and I are advocating studying the possibility of giving reparations for Redlining and segregation to those Americans who were harmed by Redlining and segregation. Why is that a bad analogy? Both efforts are targeted directly towards living people who were harmed by discriminatory government policy. It’s a bad analogy because redlining was done by banks among others and interning was done by the US government. If someone was illegally denied a loan they should pursue damages. I’m assuming you are aware that there have been significant settlements through the actions of HUD and DOJ wrt redlining right? Those settlements were paid by banks. You haven’t made the case that the US government is culpable there. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/165 "2019-06-20T18:10:43Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > It’s a bad analogy because redlining was done by banks among others and interning was done by the US government. If someone was illegally denied a loan they should pursue damages. I’m assuming you are aware that there have been significant settlements through the actions of HUD and DOJ wrt redlining right? Those settlements were paid by banks. You haven’t made the case that the US government is culpable there. I believe TNC has made that case (and you’ve acknowledged that the government created the maps that singled out black neighborhoods with “red lines” for lesser access to loans), but I think there is no conflict in also addressing the actions of banks. Do you believe the US government has any culpability for the harm done by segregation? ---
**Author:** ![MulderMuffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldermuffin/32/2862_2.png) [@MulderMuffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MulderMuffin)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/166 "2019-06-20T18:14:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you believe the US government has any culpability for the harm done by segregation? Do you believe the government owes millions of women anything for the harm done by not affording them equal rights to men in the past? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/167 "2019-06-20T18:15:02Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > It’s a bad analogy because redlining was done by banks among others and interning was done by the US government. If someone was illegally denied a loan they should pursue damages. I’m assuming you are aware that there have been significant settlements through the actions of HUD and DOJ wrt redlining right? Those settlements were paid by banks. You haven’t made the case that the US government is culpable there. Segregation was state government sponsored. Are you saying these grievances should be state settled matters? Maybe so. Seems far less likely this sort of legislation would see the light of day. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/168 "2019-06-20T18:15:32Z")
> [@MulderMuffin](#): > > Do you believe the government owes millions of women anything for the harm done by not affording them equal rights to men in the past? Very possibly – this sounds like a reasonable thing to study. So I answered your question – care to answer mine? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/169 "2019-06-20T18:17:57Z")
Has this ever started in other countries? Like have people descended from Famine victims in Ireland campaigned for reparations, for example? Or those who were serfs in Eastern Europe? (Serfdom there was NOT like in feudal times, but just slavery under a different name, and it didn’t completely end until right around the same time slavery did here in the U.S.) Seriously, has this ever been a thing elsewhere? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/170 "2019-06-20T18:18:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you believe the US government has any culpability for the harm done by segregation? Please explain how you know that the blame and the payments should fall on the US government rather than the private discriminators, and how you determined the amount and nature of the damage, and who specifically should get the dough. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/171 "2019-06-20T18:19:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I believe TNC has made that case (and you’ve acknowledged that the government created the maps that singled out black neighborhoods with “red lines” for lesser access to loans), but I think there is no conflict in also addressing the actions of banks. > > Do you believe the US government has any culpability for the harm done by segregation? No, TNC has not made that case. He has made a very persuasive case regarding the harm that redlining caused, but not that the federal government was responsible. The maps were created to plot out risk areas. You haven’t shown they were done with the intent of calling out racial groupings. Much like an actuary would map out zip codes for higher premiums on auto insurance because of increased risk of loss in frequency and severity. If the census captures race based data, and then someone uses that data for nefarious purposes, census takers aren’t culpable for that. That’s the level you’re at right now. The US government certainly has more responsibility when it comes to segregation, though I have yet to see a case made strong enough to support reparations. If in 1950 a business owner excluded blacks, I’m not seeing how the US Taxpayer is responsible. ---
**Author:** ![MulderMuffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldermuffin/32/2862_2.png) [@MulderMuffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MulderMuffin)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/172 "2019-06-20T18:21:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Very possibly – this sounds like a reasonable thing to study. > > So I answered your question – care to answer mine? No, I’m sorry, I do not believe it is reasonable or possible to know how my, or anyone’s, life would be better or different if laws and attitudes had been different in the past. It can be argued that things possibly, maybe even probably, might have been better. Definitely different. It absolutely can’t be categorically quantified and assigned a value. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/173 "2019-06-20T18:31:57Z")
> [@MulderMuffin](#): > > No, I’m sorry, I do not believe it is reasonable or possible to know how my, or anyone’s, life would be better or different if laws and attitudes had been different in the past. It can be argued that things possibly, maybe even probably, might have been better. Definitely different. It absolutely can’t be categorically quantified and assigned a value. This doesn’t answer my question. Here it is again: Do you believe the US government has any culpability for the harm done by segregation? > [@Shodan](#): > > Please explain how you know that the blame and the payments should fall on the US government rather than the private discriminators, and how you determined the amount and nature of the damage, and who specifically should get the dough. This doesn’t answer my question. If you don’t want to answer, fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/174 "2019-06-20T18:31:59Z")
> [@Clu-Me-In](#): > > There is no question that compensation is due African American descendants of slaves but who should pay the reparations? The answer most definitely isn’t this one…[https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/18/politics/mitch-mcconnell-opposes-reparations-slavery/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/18/politics/mitch-mcconnell-opposes-reparations-slavery/index.html) Yes, there is a question. No slaves are currently alive. A lot of black people in American arent even descendants of slaves. The US government never promised reparations, that whole '40 acres and a mule" thing is a urban legend. There is no way to determine who is Black. The only legal way in America is self determination. So we all self identify, and it’s just taking money from the left pocket and putting it in the right. The big scam is getting people to agree that reparations are just, then slamming them with the bill. \*\*A conservative estimate would double everyones tax bill. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Brayne\_Ded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Brayne\_Ded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brayne_Ded)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/175 "2019-06-20T18:33:39Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Haven’t read TNC’s most recent comments, but have not been persuaded by his previous writings. > > I’m all in favor of restructuring society to address past inequities, but I see no convincing argument as to cash payments of any specific amount from any specific parties to any specific individuals. OP - simply stating a position as self evident does not make it so. > > I am HUGELY in favor of increased investment in minority communities, enhanced education/vocational/social programs, racial preferences for jobs, school enrollments, etc. But I find the arguments for reparations entirely unpersuasive. I’m very disappointed to have heard some candidates whom I respect suggest it is a legitimate topic of discussion. Agreed. It becomes an endless debate about who pays how much and to whom, and does that clear the account while we are at it? And, ah, who is paying? Plus, I suppose the native Americans aka Amerindians or whatever the PC phrase is would then need to be considered. Again, all well an good, but how exactly? What indeed can be done? The past cannot really be undone, but something can be done now. Essentially, invest in ways to help people - but don’t just throw money at the problem. Remove injiustice and social and political handicaps while avoiding affirmative action as much as possible. The latter tends to have a poisonous effect in the long term. \ ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/176 "2019-06-20T18:33:47Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Fair enough. But if it were done this way, the cry would go up that when the Japanese internment survivors were given reparations, it went directly to the individual victims. Who were, i will point out- \*still alive and identifiable. \* ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/177 "2019-06-20T18:36:29Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > No, TNC has not made that case. He has made a very persuasive case regarding the harm that redlining caused, but not that the federal government was responsible. The maps were created to plot out risk areas. You haven’t shown they were done with the intent of calling out racial groupings. Much like an actuary would map out zip codes for higher premiums on auto insurance because of increased risk of loss in frequency and severity. If the census captures race based data, and then someone uses that data for nefarious purposes, census takers aren’t culpable for that. That’s the level you’re at right now. I don’t see why the intent matters (though considering the time, I’m skeptical that there wasn’t at least a partial discriminatory intent) – slavery was not intended to harm black people; it was intended to provide the economic benefit of slavery to property owners. The result was discriminatory regardless of the intent. > [@](#): > > The US government certainly has more responsibility when it comes to segregation, though I have yet to see a case made strong enough to support reparations. If in 1950 a business owner excluded blacks, I’m not seeing how the US Taxpayer is responsible. It’s not the US taxpayer responsible, it’s the US government. Just like it was the US government responsible for Japanese-American internment (and reparations). Do you believe that reparations for that internment was appropriate? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/178 "2019-06-20T18:36:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > My hypothetical experiment would start with all the living Americans (of a single town/neighborhood) who were harmed by Redlining, segregation, and similar discriminatory and oppresive government policies and practices within living memory. If that were successful, then I’d start looking at the policies and practices that were gone before the lifespan of any living American. How about those who were harmed by redlining, sued the banks and collected? Do they get to collect twice? How about the Native Americans, are we going to give them reparations? How about the Hispanics, where racism is ongoing and a major feature of the current administration? No, once you start down this road paved with good intentions, you do nothing but generate hard feelings from those who didnt get reparations, or didnt get enough. It’s a bad road, and a stupid one. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/179 "2019-06-20T18:37:33Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Who were, i will point out- \*still alive and identifiable. \* Just like many Americans who suffered under segregation, Redlining, and other discriminatory policies and practices. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753/180 "2019-06-20T18:37:35Z")
> [@MulderMuffin](#): > > No, I’m sorry, I do not believe it is reasonable or possible to know how my, or anyone’s, life would be better or different if laws and attitudes had been different in the past. It can be argued that things possibly, maybe even probably, might have been better. Definitely different. It absolutely can’t be categorically quantified and assigned a value. Perhaps we ought not even bother with including [women in the ERA](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44319712). I mean, what guarantee is there that this will improve women’s rights? Things are pretty good now, after all. Certainly better than they were. And we may never know if things would have been just fine without all the fuss and bother. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-should-pay-reparations-to-african-americans/835753.md?page=10)