# Who started the Jesus with long hair idea? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 20, 2015, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-started-the-jesus-with-long-hair-idea/720400 "2015-05-20T02:42:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2015, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-started-the-jesus-with-long-hair-idea/720400/141 "2015-05-23T02:51:36Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You seem oddly invested in the idea that Jesus had short hair. I am invested in the only actual evidence on the subject presented in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2015, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-started-the-jesus-with-long-hair-idea/720400/142 "2015-05-23T03:01:10Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > I am invested in the only actual evidence on the subject presented in this thread. I don’t think so. For example, you keep ignoring the facts presented that indicate that “short” may have meant shoulder length or longer. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2015, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-started-the-jesus-with-long-hair-idea/720400/143 "2015-05-23T03:28:42Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m pretty sure [this one](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Leonardo_da_Vinci_-_Last_Supper_(copy)_-_WGA12732.jpg) is significantly more famous. Wait, da Vinci painted Jesus as a Pict? With the early tartan of Gunn over his shoulder? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2015, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-started-the-jesus-with-long-hair-idea/720400/144 "2015-05-23T03:38:52Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I don’t think so. For example, you keep ignoring the facts presented that indicate that “short” may have meant shoulder length or longer. Which “facts” are those? ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2015, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-started-the-jesus-with-long-hair-idea/720400/145 "2015-05-23T04:27:44Z")
I don’t think Paul was lying. I think Paul had temporal lobe epilepsy. I’m sure he believed he met post-resurrection Jesus and knew what he wanted. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2015, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-started-the-jesus-with-long-hair-idea/720400/146 "2015-05-23T06:54:21Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > **Blake** argues, fairly but I think incorrectly, that the letter was only intended for the Corinthians and may have reflected only their hairstyle mores. Well, you can make that argument, but then you still have to believe that Paul was lying in the letter just to make a point. He didn’t really believe himself that long hair was shameful, but he was willing to say so for the sake of an illustration. No, I addressed this above. An rabid animal rigjhts advocate might argue:: “You accept that people who have pet cats should have to take care of them. You support jail sentences for people who torture or kill pet cats because you know that cats feel pain and distress. Cattle also feel pain and distress therefore cattle in slaughterhouses feel distress and people shouldn’t be allowed to kill cattle.” Even the most ardent PETA member could make that argument. They may not believe that people \*should \*be allowed to keep pets, but that is irrelevant. It is an argument meant to illustrate the principal behind one position by appealing to a point that you know the listener will accept. Paul is not being dishonest when he says “You accept that men always have short hair, and for the same reason women should wear headscarves.” He is being perfectly honest. His audience \*does \* accept that, and it \*is \*the same principal that requires women to cover their heads. Just because he believes that men need not have short hair doesn’t invalidate this point, any more than believing that people shouldn’t have pets invalidates an argument against cruelty based on knowledge that pets feel pain. Just because I believe that some other principal means that keeping pets should be outlawed doesn’t mean that my argument against eating meat is flawed or dishonest. I really do believe that you keep pet cats. I really do believe that cats and cows feel pain the same way. I really do believe the same principal is why we shouldn’t eat cows. None of this is dishonest. Just because Paul believed that some other principal meant that men with long hair was acceptable, that doesn’t mean that his argument in favour of headscarves is flawed or dishonest. He really did believe that the Corinthians men naturally ahd short hair. He really did believe that women and men were different. He really did believe the same principal is why women should wear headscarves. None of this is dishonest. He really did believe that > [@](#): > > Again, this is rank speculation, unsupported by any actual evidence. As is your position or any other. > [@](#): > > Again, the only actual evidence we have (Paul’s letter) weighs on the side of short hair. No! This is rank speculation, unsupported by any actual evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2015, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-started-the-jesus-with-long-hair-idea/720400/147 "2015-05-23T14:21:04Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Which “facts” are those? The fact that women’s hair at the time was usually worn waist length or so. So - shorter than women’s hair could easily mean shoulder length or longer. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2015, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-started-the-jesus-with-long-hair-idea/720400/148 "2015-05-23T15:40:23Z")
Hey, I think I found a [Roman bust of Jesus](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/Bust_Roman_woman_Glyptothek_Munich_333.jpg/640px-Bust_Roman_woman_Glyptothek_Munich_333.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2015, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-started-the-jesus-with-long-hair-idea/720400/149 "2015-05-23T15:47:13Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Paul is not being dishonest when he says “You accept that men always have short hair, and for the same reason women should wear headscarves.” He is being perfectly honest. His audience \*does \* accept that, and it \*is \*the same principal that requires women to cover their heads. He does not say “You accept that men always have short hair.” He says “Does not nature itself teach you that long hair is a shame to a man?” So you either have to accept that Paul really believed that, or you have to speculate that he was lying to make a point. > [@](#): > > No! This [Paul’s letter] is rank speculation, unsupported by any actual evidence. I think you do not understand the concept of [evidence](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumstantial_evidence). ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2015, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-started-the-jesus-with-long-hair-idea/720400/150 "2015-05-23T15:50:56Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The fact that women’s hair at the time was usually worn waist length or so. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2015, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-started-the-jesus-with-long-hair-idea/720400/151 "2015-05-23T18:13:30Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > He does not say “You accept that men always have short hair.” He says “Does not nature itself teach you that long hair is a shame to a man?” > > So you either have to accept that Paul really believed that, or you have to speculate that he was lying to make a point. Yes. We have to accept that _Paul_ believed that. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2015, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-started-the-jesus-with-long-hair-idea/720400/152 "2015-05-23T18:23:38Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Cite? Well for one thing it is a bit hard to dry someone’s feet with your hair if it is only shoulder length - wouldn’t you say? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-started-the-jesus-with-long-hair-idea/720400/153 "2015-05-23T19:20:54Z")
[Here are some more early images of Jesus](http://www.bibleorigins.net/ChristBeardless.html). Looks like his hair doesn’t start getting long until the 4th century. **Terr** , we have lots of examples of Roman artwork which demonstrate what was regarded as “short” hair in the Roman era. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2015, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-started-the-jesus-with-long-hair-idea/720400/154 "2015-05-23T19:41:39Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > [Here are some more early images of Jesus](http://www.bibleorigins.net/ChristBeardless.html). Looks like his hair doesn’t start getting long until the 4th century. > > **Terr** , we have lots of examples of Roman artwork which demonstrate what was regarded as “short” hair in the Roman era. “_He is shown as a blonde with pronounced cleft chin, shoulder-length hair,…Note Christ is portrayed with shoulder-length hair,…Below, Christ, without moustache and beard, with shoulder-length hair,…Below, Christ crucified, with moustache, beard and shoulder-length hair;_” and that website has a bias:_This website embraces the Anthropological view that man has created his gods in his own image. …Why Jesus Christ cannot be the Messiah_ here’s a unbiased site: > **[6 of the Oldest Images of Our Lord Jesus Christ](https://www.churchpop.com/6-of-the-oldest-images-of-jesus/)** > > We don’t know what Jesus looked like. > > > > The Bible doesn’t give a detailed description, and the earliest images of Jesus that we have today come from around the 3rd century. They vary fairly widely in how they depict Jesus, so they can’t necessarily... But in any case, people tended then, as now, to depict Jesus to look like an idealized male. Romans often depicted Him as beardless with shorter hair, others with a beard and longer hair. Your evidence from Paul only show Jesus likely had shorter hair than women did. Paul actually had long hair for a while, since he quite possibly took the Nazarite vow: A\*nother place we see this word is in Acts 18:18, “And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow.” Here we see that Paul had taken the Nazarite vow. Those who took the Nazarite vow (both men and women) were required to cut off all of their hair at its completion (Num 6:18; cf. 6:2, 6:5), not simply trim it. \*[actseighteen.com](http://www.actseighteen.com/articles/uncuthair.htm) [http://www.pauls-post-crucifixion-temple-sacrifices.info/pauls-nazirite-vow-acts-](http://www.pauls-post-crucifixion-temple-sacrifices.info/pauls-nazirite-vow-acts-) ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2015, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-started-the-jesus-with-long-hair-idea/720400/155 "2015-05-23T19:56:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > “_He is shown as a blonde with pronounced cleft chin, shoulder-length hair,…Note Christ is portrayed with shoulder-length hair,…Below, Christ, without moustache and beard, with shoulder-length hair,…Below, Christ crucified, with moustache, beard and shoulder-length hair;_” And those images with shoulder-length hair come from the 4th Century, as I said. You don’t see images of a long-haired Jesus before the 4th Century. Incidentally, long-haired Jesus bears a suspicious resemblance to the Greco-Egyptian god [Serapis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serapis). [Images of Serapis](https://www.google.com/search?q=serapis&biw=1366&bih=643&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=wdpgVfWBJoafNtubgYAM&sqi=2&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&dpr=1). Another example of Christianity co-opting elements from pagan traditions to ease the transition to the new faith? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-started-the-jesus-with-long-hair-idea/720400/156 "2015-05-31T18:14:20Z")
Just happened across this article from Slate: [Did a lot of men have flowing locks in ancient Judea?](http://www.slate.com/articles/life/explainer/2011/12/was_jesus_christ_s_hairstyle_normal_for_his_time_.html) It hits a lot of the same points we’ve covered, and adds a couple: > [@](#): > > A Roman triumphal arch from that era depicts enslaved Jews with short hair… > [@](#): > > Some think the depictions [of Jesus with long hair] were based on the iconography of Roman gods. Romans who viewed Jesus as the son of God would have likened him to second-generation pagan deities like Apollo and Bacchus—clean-shaven and youthful, with mid-length, curly locks. But as he increasingly came to be thought of as the king of kings, sitting on a heavenly throne, his image had to resemble the patriarchs of Olympus. Neptune and Jupiter were mature and bearded, with longer manes of hair. Also, the wiki article on [Serapis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serapis) mentions that the cult of Serapis was forcibly suppressed in the 4th century. Perhaps not coincidentally, this is when the first images of a long-haired, bearded Jesus seem to emerge. > [@](#): > > Serapis continued to increase in popularity during the Roman period, often replacing Osiris as the consort of Isis in temples outside Egypt. In 389, a Christian mob led by the Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria destroyed the Alexandrian Serapeum, but the cult survived until all forms of pagan religion were suppressed under Theodosius I in 391. . ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-started-the-jesus-with-long-hair-idea/720400/157 "2015-05-31T18:23:00Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Imagine they’d never actually met. Wouldn’t you still trust that Young, a contemporary of Smith, steeped in the faith and surrounded by people who actually knew him, would have some notion of Smith’s appearance? If Young wrote that long hair was shameful, wouldn’t you still reasonably assume Joseph Smith probably didn’t have long hair? Of course you would. Are we also imagining that Young lived in an era before steam-powered travel, photography, the printing press, and the telegram? Because otherwise, I think we’re running into way to many major, fundamental differences between the two scenarios for this analogy to make any sense. But I think you’ve proven your point through other arguments in the last few posts. “Jesus: not a hippie” is my vote now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-started-the-jesus-with-long-hair-idea/720400.md?page=7)