# Who vs Whom **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 17, 2003, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-vs-whom/219623 "2003-12-17T21:43:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-vs-whom/219623/21 "2003-12-18T04:27:35Z")
Who shot whom in the what, now? ---
**Author:** ![CairaJade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@CairaJade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairaJade)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-vs-whom/219623/22 "2003-12-18T05:56:28Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by CurtC_ > > > [@](#): > > > > CairaJade wrote: > > Ekk! “Whom did you arrive with?” is definitely NOT correct! It would be “With whom did you arrive?” > > This is the third time I’ve seen this claimed, so I want to be sure it gets pointed out clearly that ClairaJade and the other two are absolutely, positively wrong about this. “Whom did you arrive with?” is completely correct, althout it’s acceptable to use “who” in informal settings. In formal settings, it’s preferred to put the preposition up front, but whether it’s in the front or the end, “whom” is its object, therefore takes the objective case. Cite? It’s not just _preferred_ to not separate a preposition from its object, it is correct. I will concede that it is acceptible in informal settings, but it is still grammatically incorrect. And even though it may be socially acceptable, English does not have separate formal and informal grammatical structures, such as German, for example. I’ll be the first to admit that I say that very sentance, “who did you arrive with?” even though I know it contains _two_ errors. Saying it correctly just isn’t part of our vernacular. P.S. There is no “l” in my name. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-vs-whom/219623/23 "2003-12-18T08:04:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SmackFu \* > Does the use of “whom” add anything to the language, in the sense that it clears up otherwise ambiguous sentences? Nah, English relies on word order heavily enough that we don’t really need cases. Similarly, we could get rid of “I” and just say “me” everywhere. Nothing ambiguous about “Me has of late, but wherefore me knows not, lost all me’s mirth.” ---
**Author:** ![alterego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@alterego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alterego)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-vs-whom/219623/24 "2003-12-18T08:41:31Z")
_Whom_ you gonna’ call? **Ghostbusters!** ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-vs-whom/219623/25 "2003-12-18T11:30:27Z")
Could I just step in to the triesome arguments about ending sentences with prepositions and try to answer **SeekingTruth** ’s original question as simply as I can. I always had trouble with this until someone told me how to figure it out. Rewrite the sentence using either “he” or “him” in place of “who”. (If it’s a question, write an answer to it in the same format.) If “he” makes sense, then use “who”; if “him” makes sense, then use “who”. This does not need complex parsing of the sentence structure, which can get tricky. Examples: “ **Who/Whom** shall I say is calling?” = “I shall say **he** is calling” (“him” would not make sense here). So use **who**. “I live with Bob, **who/whom** I must confess I detest.” = “I live with Bob; I must say I detest **him** ”. So use **whom**. “ **Who/Whom** does he think he is to tell me which word to use?” = “He thinks **he** is an expert on English”. So use **who**. Get the idea? ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-vs-whom/219623/26 "2003-12-18T11:34:10Z")
> [@](#): > > Whom you gonna’ call? Ghostbusters! I assume this was a joke, but just to illustrate again why it is correct, strictly speaking: “ **Whom** [are] you gonna call?” = “I am gonna call **him** ”. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-vs-whom/219623/27 "2003-12-18T12:54:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*Well, there’s the story of the convicted prostitute up for parole who tried to end her sentence with a proposition, but that’s quite a different circumstance. 🙂 > > \*\* You beat me to it. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-vs-whom/219623/28 "2003-12-18T13:12:00Z")
Hmm, on re-reading **Polycarp** ’s post a bit more clearly, he beat _me_ to it as well with the all-purpose ultra-simple explanation. ---
**Author:** ![alterego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@alterego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alterego)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-vs-whom/219623/29 "2003-12-18T19:19:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by r\_k \* > \*\*I assume this was a joke, but just to illustrate again why it is correct, strictly speaking: > > “ **Whom** [are] you gonna call?” = “I am gonna call **him** ”. \*\* It is kinda’ funny, but thats honestly the example i’ve always used to keep it straight in my head 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SeekingTruth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/34f0e0/32.png) [@SeekingTruth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeekingTruth)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-vs-whom/219623/30 "2003-12-18T19:26:51Z")
Polycarp, Mr2001 and r\_k: THANK YOU! If you are willing to take a cut in pay, become English teachers. I GET IT NOW! _dance_ 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-vs-whom/219623/31 "2003-12-19T00:37:26Z")
> [@](#): > > _CairaJade wrote:_ > Cite? It’s not just preferred to not separate a preposition from its object, it is correct. I think you’re saying that it’s incorrect to end a sentence with a preposition whose object began the sentence. But that’s wrong - it _is_ correct (if informal) English. It’s also correct to use “whom” for its object. Here’s a cite. Above, robcaro posted the usage note from the AHD: > [@](#): > > When the relative pronoun stands for the object of a preposition that ends a sentence, whom is technically the correct form: the strict grammarian will insist on Whom (not who) did you give it to? ---
**Author:** ![Gllrnz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Gllrnz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gllrnz)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-vs-whom/219623/32 "2003-12-20T08:21:27Z")
I got tired of reading the posts so the answer might already be on here. If you’re not sure, just exchange “him” for “whom” and “he” for “who”. If the sentence still sounds okay, then you’re using the correct word. Example: To whom does that belong? = Does that belong to him? Who eats cheese? = He eats cheese. I’ve seen this rule of thumb in many places including a pocketsized English book, an old Reader’s Digest and some website. I’m too lazy to cite, but trust me, I know I’m right. G. ---
**Author:** ![SeekingTruth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/34f0e0/32.png) [@SeekingTruth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeekingTruth)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-vs-whom/219623/33 "2003-12-20T08:25:02Z")
Gllrnz, I said earlier I got the point (same as your explanation). Some threads never die. MODS! DELETE THIS POST\< PLEASE! ---
**Author:** ![SeekingTruth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/34f0e0/32.png) [@SeekingTruth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeekingTruth)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-vs-whom/219623/34 "2003-12-20T08:26:21Z")
Shit, I meant thread ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-vs-whom/219623/35 "2003-12-20T08:52:43Z")
`Whom' is dying, just as the familiar and polite forms of `you’ died in Shakespeare’s time. Quick: How do you address someone who is of a higher social rank than you are? If you answered `ye', that's correct. Or rather, was correct. [Now, it's simply `you’.]([http://home.bluemarble.net/~langmin/youpol.htm](http://home.bluemarble.net/~langmin/youpol.htm)) We lost the distinction about the time Britain gained its first New World colonies and printing presses became relatively common and began to exert a standardizing influence on language. Learn how to use it, but remember: Pedants die, and when they do it falls to linguistic historians to preserve the words and distinctions. And linguistic historians aren’t interested in making people speak `correctly’. ---
**Author:** ![phraser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a88e4f/32.png) [@phraser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phraser)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-vs-whom/219623/36 "2003-12-20T12:12:58Z")
OK, on a related note… (ie vague hijack) I have no problem with the difference between “who” and “whom”. Several years of studying german helped me learn the intricacies of that situation. My problem is “which” and “that”. Can someone please explain when one should use “which” and when one should use “that”? For example: This is the lawnmower that I need to take in for repairs. This is the lawnmower, which needs to be repaired. Which of those sentences is correct, if either? How does one know how to correctly phrase when using “which” or “that”? ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-vs-whom/219623/37 "2003-12-20T12:57:53Z")
In your examples, “that I need to take in for repairs” is a _restrictive clause_ in that it limits the scope of the noun “lawnmower” to only those lawnmowers that you need to take in. Your “which needs to be repaired” is a _non-restrictive clause_– it merely provides additional information, which might apply to other lawnmowers. The general rule is that a non-restrictive clause should always start with _which_ and should be separated from the rest of the sentence by commas. Restrictive clauses usually start with _that_ although it not necessarily wrong to use _which_, and you should not use commas. So both of your sentences are correct, but they mean slightly different things. ---
**Author:** ![Gllrnz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Gllrnz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gllrnz)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-vs-whom/219623/38 "2003-12-20T15:27:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SeekingTruth \* > \*\*Gllrnz, I said earlier I got the point (same as your explanation). Some threads never die. > > MODS! DELETE THIS POST\< PLEASE! \*\* Oh for god’s hairy butted sake, you don’t have to be so rude. I said I didn’t read them all, and besides what are you doing reading them anyhow if you already know the answer? Do you talk to people like this in real life? If so, I’m glad I don’t know you personally. G. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-vs-whom/219623.md?page=1)