Who wants the United States to fail in Iraq?

Great Debates
41

[QUOTE=MrDibble]
What, exactly, is wrong with producing coke and smack?
[/quote]

Nothing wrong with producing. It’s the smuggling and selling that is a problem. It makes the givernment spend a lot of money on the ineffective war on drugs we are waging to try to stem the tide of snow and dust.

In any case, my point is that this is a small world and factions in civil-war-torn/rogue nations like Somalia, Colombia, Afghanistan and now Iraq will usually end up doing something you don’t want (like sheltering Bin Laden or making drugs), thus there are good reasons to want countries to be good world citizens that can be influenced or threatened effectively into acting in our interests.

42

[QUOTE=Tristan]
I know you don’t have one, because this is your own personal delusion, but…

cite?
[/QUOTE]
For killing foreigners ? My cite is the very thing we are talking about, Iraq. And all the other countries we’ve bombed and invaded that were no threat to us. If America doesn’t want the charge of being prone to killing foreigners to stick, perhaps it should stop doing so so often.

As for greed and amorality; have you been living under a rock all your life ? America is a culture that openly embraces greed as some sort of virtue. And a nation where being accused of of caring for other people, of being a “bleeding heart liberal” is one of the worst insults you can make.

43

To fail at what? what is the mission?

44

[QUOTE=mswas]
Unless of course Iraq turns to China with its massive reserves. In which case it screws America.

Iraq could have the world’s largest oil reserves
[/QUOTE]

Do you not believe in free trade? Should Iraq not have the right to sell to whomever it wishes? Do you believe we have the right to take that oil by force?

Also, why would our leaving Iraq make them less willing to sell oil to us? They don’t want us there anyway. Leaving would make them liek us more, not less.

45

[QUOTE=Gozu]
Nothing wrong with producing. It’s the smuggling and selling that is a problem. It makes the givernment spend a lot of money on the ineffective war on drugs we are waging to try to stem the tide of snow and dust.
[/QUOTE]

That problem is easily solved. Legalize it.

46

[QUOTE=Gozu]
Nothing wrong with producing. It’s the smuggling and selling that is a problem.
[/QUOTE]
That’s not Afghanistan/Colombia’s problem, though, is it? It’s America’s (since it’s America who doesn’t want the blow and horse to come in). Both countries are perfectly justified in producing whatever they like, especially drugs that actually do have legitimate medical uses. So blaming them for America’s problems is kind of ass-backwards, isn’t it? Especially if you use this as justification for strong-erming them. Here’s a tip - don’t want their drugs, don’t buy them. Police your own citizens anyway you want to, but leave other nations to do whatever they want to, up to and including producing all the nose candy and brown sugar they want. Call it the triumph of the free market.

47

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
That problem is easily solved. Legalize it.
[/QUOTE]

We’re getting off topic but here goes. The war on drugs may go the way of the prohibition but, until then, the taxpayer money is spent on it. A lot of taxpayer money. I’m just using the drug war as an example. What I’m saying is that people with little to lose and a lot to gain from criminal activities might turn to the latter in self-interest.

Invariably, all those rogue territories tend to diversify in their newly discovered criminalhood. Kidnapping, hijacking, weapon and contraband (think counterfeit meds, not knockoff bags) trafficking, helping foreign criminal organizations (exotic mobs), giving refuge to other criminals and other sundry mischiefs.

It would be bad for Iraq to turn out that way. I think we can all agree on that. How bad is anybody’s guess. Might turn out to be cheaper to deal with it than to continue funding the war, given how expensive it is. Who knows. I stand by my former post on getting* a lot* of help from other countries fast.

48

[QUOTE=Gozu]
Who wants the United States to fail in Iraq? Any other countries you think benefit from this?
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
All of them, I think. Anything that discourages America from throwing it’s weight around so much will help other countries with their ambitions, whatever they may be.

Even America would benefit, in the long run; the war in Iraq and it’s occupation was and is a stupid thing. Discouraging us from similar stupidities is a good thing.
[/QUOTE]

These statements reveals your hidden agenda that you cannot speak.. And I will be blunt, you are sympathizing with the ideals of Lenin and Marx against those ideals of Capitalism. You comport yourself as Pravda (Russian: Правда, “The Truth”) when making your posts.

Your first statement is an appeal to unify nations as described here

[QUOTE=Vladimir Lenin]
We demand freedom of self-determination, i.e., independence, i.e., freedom of secession for the oppressed nations, not because we have dreamt of splitting up the country economically, or of the ideal of small states, but, on the contrary, because we want large states and the closer unity and even fusion of nations, only on a truly democratic, truly internationalist basis, which is inconceivable without the freedom to secede. Lenin: The Revolutionary Proletariat and the Right of Nations to Self-Determination
[/QUOTE]

Your second statement is

Put into terms of the Iraq war, the false consciousness, a Marxist thesis, is that there is neither benefit or reward for either Iraq or the US or the world and it (the war) has been alienating from their social relationship with each other.

In the post http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9820772&postcount=26

You were “hung by your own petard”

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
The Republicans have a lot of fundamental agreement with the Islamists on how the world should be run.
[/QUOTE]

This further reveals your conceit. Marxism posits that the bourgeois (capitalists) have instilled in us our religion and nationalism in order to make us more docile and easier to exploit economically. Marxism - Wikipedia

This proves Marxism is anti-religious and all your Marxist logic used against religion is now debunked.

You are WRONG, WRONG, WRONG Der Trihs. Marxism and all of its embodiments have been proved false time and time again by history.

The freedom of religion gives us individuality of choice and the constitution has given us a nationalism which requires us to take seriously our voting franchise.

Posters to the thread are marginalized and intimidated by this WRONG Marxist old worn out tripe idealogy which is proven by post #27:

[QUOTE=elucidator]
I believe friend Der is indulging a bit of sarcasm, with the deft subtlety of a frozen mackeral across the chops.
[/QUOTE]

This is an attempt to defang the argument of post #26 by claiming the original statement was sarcasm so that the proletariat(posters) would dismiss it. This post is a technique of Propaganda, which seeks to be dismissive of dissenting opinions.

I refuse to allow myself, nor should anyone else, an emotional rather than rational response to the question of the the qualifications and platform of one Barack Hussein Obama. The whole point of this thread without it being stated is the ‘old way is bad and the new way is good’, which on its face is Propaganda, a concerted set of messages aimed at influencing the opinions or behaviors of large numbers of people an attempt **to change the cognitive to emotion rather than to reasoning. **

It will be a cold day in hell when I will allow you Der Trihs or one of your ‘cadre’ to manipulate my freedom of speech toward emotion.

This is my final post on this thread. But I reserve the right to start a new thread.

49

[QUOTE=focusonz]
These statements reveals your hidden agenda that you cannot speak.. And I will be blunt, you are sympathizing with the ideals of Lenin and Marx against those ideals of Capitalism.
[/quote]
Don’t be silly. If I were a Marxist, I’d say so.

[QUOTE=focusonz]
This proves Marxism is anti-religious and all your Marxist logic used against religion is now debunked.
[/quote]
What “Marxist logic” ? Are you claiming that the only reason to disapprove of religion is Marxism ?

You also assume that being anti-religious is a bad thing. Prove it.

[QUOTE=focusonz]
This is my final post on this thread. But I reserve the right to start a new thread.
[/QUOTE]
In other words, after a bizarre post where you telepathically determined that I am secretly a Marxist yet don’t dare say so ( because I’m so VERY well known for caring about people’s disapproval :rolleyes: ), you are going to run off and refuse to defend your position.

50

[QUOTE=Gozu]
We’re getting off topic but here goes. The war on drugs may go the way of the prohibition but, until then, the taxpayer money is spent on it. A lot of taxpayer money. I’m just using the drug war as an example. What I’m saying is that people with little to lose and a lot to gain from criminal activities might turn to the latter in self-interest.
[/quote]

I don’t have a problem wth that. Good for them. more power to them. They’re just using our own stupidity against us. We’re choosing to hurt ourselves with our drug laws. It’s not their fault. Was Canada hurting America during Prohibition?

And America should give a shit why?

I don’t give a rat’s ass how Iraq turns out. Iraq is not our responsibility.

51

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
I don’t have a problem wth that. Good for them. more power to them. They’re just using our own stupidity against us. We’re choosing to hurt ourselves with our drug laws. It’s not their fault. Was Canada hurting America during Prohibition?

And America should give a shit why?

I don’t give a rat’s ass how Iraq turns out. Iraq is not our responsibility.
[/QUOTE]

I refer you to this post for answers.

52

I want the guys that invaded without a shred of legitimate evidence to get the hell out of Iraq. Pronto.

I’ll leave this erudite crowd to figure out what side I am referring to.

53

[QUOTE=Gozu]

Invariably, all those rogue territories tend to diversify in their newly discovered criminalhood.
[/QUOTE]
“Rogue” from who? Are you suggesting American drug/criminal laws should have weight outside your own country? Why? And why not start with Amsterdam then, not Baghdad, by that logic?
[QUOTE=Gozu]

Kidnapping, hijacking, weapon and contraband (think counterfeit meds, not knockoff bags) trafficking, helping foreign criminal organizations (exotic mobs), giving refuge to other criminals and other sundry mischiefs.
[/QUOTE]
All of which only really flourishes in the sort of lawless hellhole the US created in Iraq. The country was nothing like Somalia/Afghanistan before GWII

[QUOTE=Gozu]

It would be bad for Iraq to turn out that way. I think we can all agree on that.
[/QUOTE]
Depends what you mean by “that way”. For instance, my own country made “knock off” retroviral drugs when Western corporations placed profit over humitarianism.We also sell weapons to other countries (as does the US). Does that make us “Rogue”?
[QUOTE=Gozu]

I stand by my former post on getting* a lot* of help from other countries fast.
[/QUOTE]

Other countries aren’t going to help. I think the general reply would be “You made your bed, now lie in it”

54

[QUOTE=MrDibble]
“Rogue” from who? Are you suggesting American drug/criminal laws should have weight outside your own country? Why? And why not start with Amsterdam then, not Baghdad, by that logic? All of which only really flourishes in the sort of lawless hellhole the US created in Iraq. The country was nothing like Somalia/Afghanistan before GWII
Depends what you mean by “that way”. For instance, my own country made “knock off” retroviral drugs when Western corporations placed profit over humitarianism.We also sell weapons to other countries (as does the US). Does that make us “Rogue”?
Other countries aren’t going to help. I think the general reply would be “You made your bed, now lie in it”
[/QUOTE]

Am I suggesting what? No. I’m definitely not, consarn it! though I’m glad you agree with me that lawless and hellhole sometimes go together.

By counterfeit drugs, i mean bad drugs (expired with fake dates, chemically different, full of lead, whatever) which is why I contrasted them with fake designer items. As far as countries like Brazil or India manufacturing generics after talk with some Big Pharmas collapsed , I fully support ignoring patent laws to save lives and alleviate suffering.

I do not believe in isolationism though and I do not support it in the slightest. “them” and “over there” are losing meaning fast. All countries will end up learning this sooner or later. It might as well be sooner.