# Who wants to defend pirating content (movies/music/books/software/whatever)? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 22, 2008, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948 "2008-11-22T02:46:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/21 "2008-11-22T04:05:58Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I expect he/she is responding to [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=494092) IMHO thread, and wasn’t in an IMHO mood. Oh, what an annoying thread. I’m not in an IMHO mood after reading it either. I hate word pedants. ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/22 "2008-11-22T04:06:42Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > Any thieves out there who have deluded themselves into thinking there is nothing wrong with doing this? In some circumstances I see nothing wrong with it and in others I think it’s more than okay. If the software is not going to be bought by someone because they can’t afford it, then the owners lose nothing by someone illegally downloading it. I’ve read that in some third world countries, students that can not afford expensive software are obtaining pirated software for little cost or free. They are using it to learn and obtain jobs that they may not have been a possibility without illegally obtaining the software and since buying it was out of the question, the software companies lost nothing. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/23 "2008-11-22T04:12:17Z")
Also I should add that I’m personally against pirating movies or whatever for profit; I’m softer on personal use. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/24 "2008-11-22T04:12:21Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > I don’t care about the laws. I’m talking about morality. If it was legal to pirate content, I’d still think it was immoral (and hey, guess what, there would be a hell of a lot less content to steal). I have no moral qualms about fucking over people actively trying to fuck me over. Call me a thief if you want, if you work for the video game or music industry the only lable you should be worried about applying to me is “former customer”. Back when i really couldn’t afford it i spent hundreds of dollars a month on music and video games, now that i can easily afford both i pirate them. Why? because both industries have chosen to treat their paying customers as criminals. I would be more likely to pay to use a pirating site than i would for the product because the pirates provide a working product free of DRM. ---
**Author:** ![ZebraShaSha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/eada6e/32.png) [@ZebraShaSha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZebraShaSha)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/25 "2008-11-22T04:19:42Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > Give me all your valueless possessions, please. > > You don’t have to actually ship me anything. I’ll just mail you a contract, you can sign it, and then I’ll collect the stuff at my leisure. > > If you are unhappy with this proposal, why? By definition, if something is worthless, you shouldn’t have any reason to want to keep it. I guess that’s true. I just know that I keep anything that would make my life more complicated if it was stolen as secure as possible and whatever happens, happens. I was being coy before, but now I’d like to defend piracy. It’s not always _right_, but it also isn’t always _wrong._ I’ve amassed a metric shit ton of music in my day, but by doing so, who have I hurt? The band I would have never heard of otherwise, but through piracy I got and really liked their album, so I went to their show (some percentage of the cover goes to the band) and bought the album or some merch from them directly? Have I hurt the bands I’ve booked for shows that nobody in this town had heard about before, but 150+ came to the show and fell in love, buying a bunch of stuff in the process? Just today I put a pirated album in rotation that will get broadcast by DJs many, many times, all in support for a show that will mostly likely get atleast 80 people, most who had never heard of them before, many of which will buy things at the show, or buy their album at a further date. Is that _wrong?_ Is it better for no one to hear these bands at all if they don’t get the ridiculous buck or two an album they would have otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/26 "2008-11-22T04:24:09Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > I have no moral qualms about fucking over people actively trying to fuck me over. Call me a thief if you want, if you work for the video game or music industry the only lable you should be worried about applying to me is “former customer”. Back when i really couldn’t afford it i spent hundreds of dollars a month on music and video games, now that i can easily afford both i pirate them. Why? because both industries have chosen to treat their paying customers as criminals. I would be more likely to pay to use a pirating site than i would for the product because the pirates provide a working product free of DRM. DRM exists in the first place because of piracy. Don’t get pissed at the people who are simply trying to get paid for their hard work, get pissed at the assholes who think they are entitled to take advantage of that hard work for free. No one is “actively trying” to fuck you over. If you hate DRM, then your pirating content is just making the problem worse. If you don’t like copy-protection schemes, you are free to not purchase products that use them. But the idea that your dissatisfaction gives you the right to enjoy the fruits of their labor free of charge is invalid. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/27 "2008-11-22T04:26:04Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I’ve always wondered about the “Yeah I’m immoral and a lawbreaker, so what of it”, mindset. Is it a craving for attention? Does it make you feel important? Why do you not care about doing what is right? > [@DigitalC](#): > > Are you joking? +1 Even though I buy music on CDs I absolutely love being able to pirate music, as it lets me review entire CDs and decide what I want to buy, or what is not worth my money. It gives me power as a consumer. And I will never willingly give that up just because someone tells me that piracy is wrong. I was a part of Oink, a famous bittorrent site that was shutdown last year, and I’ve often said since; give me a digital music site that offers me the absolutely phenominal range, accessibility and quality of music that oink did, and I think I’d happily buy digital music. As it stands, I’m being asked to buy substandard digital music, or albums which are often 50% or more forgettable glurge, and which are an absolute pain to find in music stores anyways, in support of a music industry whose mentalities often make the automotive industry look forward-thinking and innovative. Fuck your DRMs and rootkits and invasive shit. [On-line post-mortem of Oink](http://www.demonbaby.com/blog/2007/10/when-pigs-fly-death-of-oink-birth-of.html) which I remember myself whole-heartedly agreeing with at the time I read it. ---
**Author:** ![ZebraShaSha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/eada6e/32.png) [@ZebraShaSha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZebraShaSha)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/28 "2008-11-22T04:27:11Z")
> [@Fantome](#): > > In some circumstances I see nothing wrong with it and in others I think it’s more than okay. > > If the software is not going to be bought by someone because they can’t afford it, then the owners lose nothing by someone illegally downloading it. I’ve read that in some third world countries, students that can not afford expensive software are obtaining pirated software for little cost or free. They are using it to learn and obtain jobs that they may not have been a possibility without illegally obtaining the software and since buying it was out of the question, the software companies lost nothing. I think that in these cases the company _gains_. 1. As you say, they weren’t going to profit regardless, so net gain is 0 2. They are both widening their user base and making their software even more dominant, which will, once the user gets a job, more than likely lead to more people legally buying their product This argument gets used a lot with Photoshop and Illustrator. All entry level graphic arts jobs require proficiency in both, but what student can afford to legally buy $600 bucks of software just to learn? If Adobe makes it easy to pirate, kids will pirate it because it’s what the industry uses. When the kid grows up and works in the industry, they will then legally purchase the software. Being easy to pirate reinforces Adobe’s dominance on graphic design, because kids who wouldn’t buy it otherwise (cause they ain’t got the money) are learning it anyway. Adobe, ultimately, profits, or at the very least their net gain of zero. (But, of course, the kid is an immoral jackass, yadda yadda.) ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/29 "2008-11-22T04:30:58Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > DRM exists in the first place because of piracy. Don’t get pissed at the people who are simply trying to get paid for their hard work, get pissed at the assholes who think they are entitled to take advantage of that hard work for free. No one is “actively trying” to fuck you over. Bullshit. DRM has NEVER STOPPED PIRACY. It does not work at all, the only people it incoviniences are the paying customers. The gaming companies MUST know this, and yet they still include it. Why? to kill the second hand gaming market, that piece of software you bought never actually belongs to you so why bother paying for it? > [@](#): > > If you hate DRM, then your pirating content is just making the problem worse. > > If you don’t like copy-protection schemes, you are free to not purchase products that use them. But the idea that your dissatisfaction gives you the right to enjoy the fruits of their labor free of charge is invalid. I paid for Sins of a Solar Empire, a great game with no DRM that was actually put up for download by an employee of the DRM companies. I never said it was my “right” to enjoy the fruits of their labors, i said i don’t feel bad about it any more than i feel about speeding. ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/30 "2008-11-22T04:34:05Z")
**Absolute** , I see you have skipped over my post and have responded to another. Would you like to concede that one can be a thief and have done nothing wrong morally? On preview, I see that **ZebraShaSha** has done a better job at describing software thievery that should be difficult for one to find immoral; maybe you’ll respond to that. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/31 "2008-11-22T04:35:48Z")
> [@Fantome](#): > > In some circumstances I see nothing wrong with it and in others I think it’s more than okay. > > If the software is not going to be bought by someone because they can’t afford it, then the owners lose nothing by someone illegally downloading it. Not true. Software that is widely pirated loses value. Let’s say I’m a graphic designer who has paid $1200 (or whatever) for the full Adobe suite. I have to charge higher prices to make up for the cost of this program. Some little dipshit who downloads it for free doesn’t have that problem, and he can undercut me. My only solution is to not pay for the software myself, and now Adobe is getting screwed. Also, many people who pirate software for this reason seem to have a loose definition of “can’t afford it”. Usually, the definition is equivalent to “too cheap to pay for it”. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/32 "2008-11-22T04:38:19Z")
> [@ZebraShaSha](#): > > I think that in these cases the company _gains_. > > 1. As you say, they weren’t going to profit regardless, so net gain is 0 > > 2. They are both widening their user base and making their software even more dominant, which will, once the user gets a job, more than likely lead to more people legally buying their product > This argument gets used a lot with Photoshop and Illustrator. All entry level graphic arts jobs require proficiency in both, but what student can afford to legally buy $600 bucks of software just to learn? If Adobe makes it easy to pirate, kids will pirate it because it’s what the industry uses. When the kid grows up and works in the industry, they will then legally purchase the software. Being easy to pirate reinforces Adobe’s dominance on graphic design, because kids who wouldn’t buy it otherwise (cause they ain’t got the money) are learning it anyway. Adobe, ultimately, profits, or at the very least their net gain of zero. > > (But, of course, the kid is an immoral jackass, yadda yadda.) Make that argument to Adobe. Maybe they’ll agree with you and start distributing their software for free to students. In the meantime, it’s their software, that they have spent their time and money to develop, and they should have the right to set the price at which they are compensated for their efforts. Not you. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/33 "2008-11-22T04:41:29Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > DRM exists in the first place because of piracy. Don’t get pissed at the people who are simply trying to get paid for their hard work, get pissed at the assholes who think they are entitled to take advantage of that hard work for free. No one is “actively trying” to fuck you over. Yes, they are. DRM doesn’t do a thing to stop piracy; on the contrary, it helps them by creating a market, and by making them look like they have the moral high ground. THEY aren’t the ones downloading destructive software onto people’s hard drives. DRM and other “anti-piracy” scams are just, at best, attempts to pretend something is being done about piracy, regardless of the damage done to the consumer. And piracy isn’t the massive scourge that these people are claiming anyway; that’s how games like _Sins of a Solar Empire_ can get published without protection and still make a profit. Because most people would prefer to buy legal, if the product isn’t saddled with something like DRM. AND, if it’s worth buying; one reason for all the ranting about piracy is that it allows the blame for low sales to be placed on “pirates”, and not a product that people don’t want to buy. As I said, rather than pirate, I simply don’t buy products with DRM; I’m sure that my lost sale counts toward the statistics on supposed piracy. > [@Absolute](#): > > If you don’t like copy-protection schemes, you are free to not purchase products that use them. But the idea that your dissatisfaction gives you the right to enjoy the fruits of their labor free of charge is invalid. When you mistreat people, you go from the “fair exchange of goods” category into the “enemy; screw them over” category in many people’s eyes. Frankly, I expect that for quite a few people at this point hurting the companies economically not only isn’t a moral concern, but a fringe benefit. Making your customer base look at you as a despised enemy isn’t general good practice, especially with a luxury. ---
**Author:** ![ZebraShaSha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/eada6e/32.png) [@ZebraShaSha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZebraShaSha)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/34 "2008-11-22T04:42:31Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > Make that argument to Adobe. Maybe they’ll agree with you and start distributing their software for free to students. > > In the meantime, it’s their software, and they should have the right to set the price at which it is sold. Not you. First, no one said otherwise, they can charge $15,000 if they want. But, while no software can be perfectly un-crackable, isn’t a little curious just how easy to crack Adobe’s programs are? Illustrator CS3 was cracked before it was even launched, and I bet CS4 will be just as well. Most software companies make it a little harder than _that._ So while they won’t make it free for students, they pretty much are anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/35 "2008-11-22T04:47:29Z")
> [@Fantome](#): > > **Absolute** , I see you have skipped over my post and have responded to another. Would you like to concede that one can be a thief and have done nothing wrong morally? On preview, I see that **ZebraShaSha** has done a better job at describing software thievery that should be difficult for one to find immoral; maybe you’ll respond to that. I am not making any particular effort to respond to things in order. ---
**Author:** ![Uvula\_Donor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e19adc/32.png) [@Uvula\_Donor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uvula_Donor)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/36 "2008-11-22T04:48:48Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I’ve always wondered about the “Yeah I’m immoral and a lawbreaker, so what of it”, mindset. Is it a craving for attention? Does it make you feel important? Why do you not care about doing what is right? So, because I don’t really care whether digital piracy is immoral or illegal, that means _I’m_ an immoral lawbreaker? Who the fuck are\* you?\* That’s a rhetorical question; no need to answer. I was serious when I said I didn’t give a fuck what you think. Got a good laugh about that “craving for attention” and “feeling important” thing, though. Good ones. ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/37 "2008-11-22T04:54:14Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > Not true. Software that is widely pirated loses value. > > Let’s say I’m a graphic designer who has paid $1200 (or whatever) for the full Adobe suite. I have to charge higher prices to make up for the cost of this program. Some little dipshit who downloads it for free doesn’t have that problem, and he can undercut me. My only solution is to not pay for the software myself, and now Adobe is getting screwed. > > Also, many people who pirate software for this reason seem to have a loose definition of “can’t afford it”. Usually, the definition is equivalent to “too cheap to pay for it”. Okay? You just brought up situations in which pirated software can be seen as immoral and provided the reasons why. You did not refute my example, which was about someone who really can’t afford it, not who is just too cheap to. I am a student in a third world country who has illegally obtained a copy of Photoshop and I absolutely could not afford Adobe’s price. I use it to learn so I can get a skilled job and will be able to afford such things in the future. How have I deluded myself by thinking there is nothing wrong with doing this? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/38 "2008-11-22T04:55:45Z")
Piracy of intellectual property is theft and it’s wrong. But the people who are loudest in the cries against piracy have no concern about intellectual property. They just don’t want any competition while they steal from the actual creators. They’ve invented an artificial system where they can collect ninety percent of the profits without creating anything. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/39 "2008-11-22T04:56:29Z")
Thought this might be a good thread to post [this story](http://consumerist.com/5092636/worlds-most-conscientious-customer-completes-botched-software-purchase-over-a-year-later). ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/40 "2008-11-22T04:58:09Z")
Well, I was going to, but I figure it would fall on deaf ears. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948.md?page=3)