# Who wants to defend pirating content (movies/music/books/software/whatever)? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 22, 2008, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948 "2008-11-22T02:46:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![AllWalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/db5fbb/32.png) [@AllWalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AllWalker)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/41 "2008-11-22T04:59:42Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Bullshit. DRM has NEVER STOPPED PIRACY. It does not work at all, the only people it incoviniences are the paying customers. The gaming companies MUST know this, and yet they still include it. Why? to kill the second hand gaming market, that piece of software you bought never actually belongs to you so why bother paying for it? Seconded. Since any pirate can get around it without any trouble DRM is, as you say, punishing solely the legit customers. What happens when they can’t use their legit copy because DRM blocks them? It is as much a cause of piracy as it is a reaction to it. The smart video game companies can get around piracy. Blizzard, for example. Want to download WC3 illegally? Go ahead. Good luck getting onto [battle.net](http://battle.net), where all the real fun lies. Contrast EA Games, who buy out companies and produce crappy sequels (RA3, anyone?) while whining because no one wants to pay for their shitty product with their shitty unskippable intro ads. It is a lot harder to prevent piracy of TV shows, music and movies, so they need to embrace new strategies. With TV, for example, ads can run every now and then across a header bar along the bottom of the screen. that would suck, but there are plenty of commercial networks that do that already, as if the damn ad breaks weren’t enough. In conclusion: 1)piracy can not be stopped, it needs to be approached in an intelligent way. 2)consumers are pissed off at a lot of the big companies and this is one factor leading to piracy 3)piracy is theft, as the holders of the intellectual rights do not benefit from your consumption. So, IR holders need to see point (1) 4)EA Games sucks. DRM sucks as well. ---
**Author:** ![ZebraShaSha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/eada6e/32.png) [@ZebraShaSha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZebraShaSha)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/42 "2008-11-22T05:00:10Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Piracy of intellectual property is theft and it’s wrong. > > But the people who are loudest in the cries against piracy have no concern about intellectual property. They just don’t want any competition while they steal from the actual creators. They’ve invented an artificial system where they can collect ninety percent of the profits without creating anything. I’d like to state that I’m both a graphic designer and artist, as in visual arts. In the art world, piracy is called “appropriating.” ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/43 "2008-11-22T05:01:53Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > Okay, in this situation, you’re not stealing from the owner of the car. But what about the people who make their money by designing cars, and then selling them? You’re stealing from them, by benefitting from their work without compensating them for it. That’s a fair point. Again, I would argue that it’s a different, less severe kind of theft, because I’m not taking away something that the car makers once had and now don’t. > [@Absolute](#): > > Oh, for Christ’s sake. The term was “I don’t think physical objects have value”. In what world do you live that “without value” is not a synonym for “worthless”? Value is a synonym for worth. “without value” -\> valueless -\> worthless > > Money is just a convenience for expressing value. So you would put a price on the love of your relatives? Your daughter has/would have a value that could be expressed in monetary terms? Or is she/would she be worthless? After all, monetary value == worth, and all worth can be expressed in monetary terms, right? > [@Absolute](#): > > How is it his right to determine how much Adobe can charge for their software? What if everyone wanted Photoshop for free? Should Adobe just give it away? I’m not saying it’s his right, I’m offering a potential reason for his attitude which doesn’t involve ulterior motives, thus invalidating the assumption that willful disregard of the law must be inspired by some deeper need. > [@Absolute](#): > > Do you think Adobe should just let people download their software for free and ask for donations? Do you think Photoshop would still exist if they did that? Well, I’m a proponent of the open-source movement, through which many successful companies (see Red Hat, SuSe, Novell, IBM, etc.) have made substantial profits. I believe that Photoshop would be better software and, yes, that Adobe would still make substantial profit, more than enough to justify the continuous development of the product. This has also been proven in the realm of music, where Radiohead and a number of artists using the Creative Commons license have released their work for free and still turned substantial profits. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/44 "2008-11-22T05:02:53Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Piracy of intellectual property is theft and it’s wrong. > > But the people who are loudest in the cries against piracy have no concern about intellectual property. They just don’t want any competition while they steal from the actual creators. They’ve invented an artificial system where they can collect ninety percent of the profits without creating anything. Not only that, but in cahoots with their lobbyist-persuaded friends in Congress, they have extended copyright protections beyond any length of time that can reasonably be justified if you really believe that the purpose of copyright is to encourage creativity. They have also, through legislation like the DMCA, effectively circumvented fair use, making it almost non-functioning in some cases. In doing this, their level of immorality rises at least as high as that of the pirates. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/45 "2008-11-22T05:05:03Z")
> [@Fantome](#): > > Okay? You just brought up situations in which pirated software can be seen as immoral and provided the reasons why. You did not refute my example, which was about someone who really can’t afford it, not who is just too cheap to. > > I am a student in a third world country who has illegally obtained a copy of Photoshop and I absolutely could not afford Adobe’s price. I use it to learn so I can get a skilled job and will be able to afford such things in the future. How have I deluded myself by thinking there is nothing wrong with doing this? You can afford a computer and an internet connection, can’t you? Maybe you can find 10 other students and pool your money and have your school buy a copy for you all to use. Maybe it’s not so impossible after all for you to compensate Adobe for their labors. But you’ll never know if you just decide to steal it. If you really can’t afford it, maybe you can get Adobe to donate their software to your school. I think they do that, actually - I know Microsoft does. This reminds me of another problem with piracy - what does it do to manufacturers of other software at lower price points? If I am selling Paint Shop Pro for $99, who is going to buy my software if people think it’s okay to just steal Adobe’s? ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/46 "2008-11-22T05:12:35Z")
> [@ZebraShaSha](#): > > I’d like to state that I’m both a graphic designer and artist, as in visual arts. In the art world, piracy is called “appropriating.” How about “plagiarism”? Do we all think plagiarism is okay, because you’re not actually stealing anything physical from the original creator? After all, they still have their original work, right? ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/47 "2008-11-22T05:15:21Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > You can afford a computer and an internet connection, can’t you? Maybe you can find 10 other students and pool your money and have your school buy a copy for you all to use. One copy on ten PCs for 10 students? Isn’t that immoral in your eyes? Anyway, stop with the suppositions. My example deals with a poor student who can genuinely not afford to obtain Photoshop legally. Stop pretending there is no such thing. ---
**Author:** ![placebo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e274bd/32.png) [@placebo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/placebo)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/48 "2008-11-22T05:19:21Z")
Piracy is theft only if I was going to buy your cd/dvd/software anyway. I wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/49 "2008-11-22T05:23:01Z")
> [@Hostile\_Dialect](#): > > So you would put a price on the love of your relatives? Your daughter has/would have a value that could be expressed in monetary terms? Or is she/would she be worthless? After all, monetary value == worth, and all worth can be expressed in monetary terms, right? An indescribably high value is not “without value”. Priceless is not synonymous with worthless. All worth _can_ be expressed in monetary terms - I would give any amount of money to save the life of one of my relatives. That doesn’t mean they’re worthless, it means they’re the most valuable things in the universe to me. **ZebraShaSha** said she thinks physical objects are “without value”. I don’t see how that means anything other than “zero value”. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/50 "2008-11-22T05:25:54Z")
> [@Fantome](#): > > One copy on ten PCs for 10 students? Isn’t that immoral in your eyes? Anyway, stop with the suppositions. My example deals with a poor student who can genuinely not afford to obtain Photoshop legally. Stop pretending there is no such thing. They would install it on one PC and the students would share access to it. Inability to afford something doesn’t make it ethical to steal. I would probably agree with you if you argued that it would be unethical for Adobe not to donate software to such a person. But it is not ethical for such a person to make that decision for Adobe because they feel they need it. [http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/philanthropy/software.html](http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/philanthropy/software.html) ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/51 "2008-11-22T05:27:07Z")
> [@placebo](#): > > Piracy is theft only if I was going to buy your cd/dvd/software anyway. I wasn’t. As I said, your stealing diminishes the worth of the product that other people have had the integrity to pay for. EDIT: I phrased this badly and am too tired to revise it. I do not think this is an accurate statement of my opinion, so don’t bother replying to it. Will be back in the morning! ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/52 "2008-11-22T05:27:58Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > and hey, guess what, there would be a hell of a lot less content to steal. I don’t think that’s nearly as much of a given as you seem to think it is. > [@Absolute](#): > > I don’t think there’s anything wrong with this. And what of the system by which the law-abiding have less freedom to use the content than the law-breaking do? People often speak of the incentive for people to make things, but what of the incentive for people to buy things? As it stands in the music industry, there is much less incentive for me to buy music than to steal it, even without considering the exorbitant prices of records and the tendency of record labels–who do more to cheapen the music than the artists do to enrich it–to skim off the top. In fact, I would argue that buying CDs is tantamount to enabling theft of a much realer fashion. > [@Fantome](#): > > If the software is not going to be bought by someone because they can’t afford it, then the owners lose nothing by someone illegally downloading it. I’ve read that in some third world countries, students that can not afford expensive software are obtaining pirated software for little cost or free. They are using it to learn and obtain jobs that they may not have been a possibility without illegally obtaining the software and since buying it was out of the question, the software companies lost nothing. And, of course, when those students grow up to be writers, video editors, etc., etc., they’ll have the money to buy the software. > [@DigitalC](#): > > I would be more likely to pay to use a pirating site than i would for the product because the pirates provide a working product free of DRM. Seconded. > [@Absolute](#): > > DRM exists in the first place because of piracy. Don’t get pissed at the people who are simply trying to get paid for their hard work, get pissed at the assholes who think they are entitled to take advantage of that hard work for free. No one is “actively trying” to fuck you over. Bullshit. DRM has done nothing to curtail piracy. It exists because some idiot thought it was a good idea; if anything, it’s frustrated the people who paid for the stuff anyway, and has driven more people to piracy. Not to mention that DRM software has crippled end users’ computers before. > [@Absolute](#): > > If you hate DRM, then your pirating content is just making the problem worse. Nonsense. Paying for DRM-protected products legitimizes DRM and encourages its continued use. Pirating content sends the message that it is not acceptable, and is much more likely to lead to a sea change. > [@Absolute](#): > > If you don’t like copy-protection schemes, you are free to not purchase products that use them. But the idea that your dissatisfaction gives you the right to enjoy the fruits of their labor free of charge is invalid. If the relevant industries don’t like me pirating their work, they are free to stop using systems that punish me for buying it. > [@Absolute](#): > > Let’s say I’m a graphic designer who has paid $1200 (or whatever) for the full Adobe suite. I have to charge higher prices to make up for the cost of this program. Some little dipshit who downloads it for free doesn’t have that problem, and he can undercut me. My only solution is to not pay for the software myself, and now Adobe is getting screwed. You can make stuff like this up, but the fact is that Adobe is doing extremely well despite, or _because of_, the fact that its high-end software is easy to pirate. > [@Absolute](#): > > Also, many people who pirate software for this reason seem to have a loose definition of “can’t afford it”. Usually, the definition is equivalent to “too cheap to pay for it”. How do you expect me to empty my entire bank account for software when I need that money for textbooks, food and transit to my classes? > [@Absolute](#): > > If I am selling Paint Shop Pro for $99, who is going to buy my software if people think it’s okay to just steal Adobe’s? Maybe you should make a better product. I doubt Paint Shop Pro is doing well against Adobe among people who buy it legally, either. > [@Absolute](#): > > How about “plagiarism”? Do we all think plagiarism is okay, because you’re not actually stealing anything physical from the original creator? After all, they still have their original work, right? Plagiarism has nothing to do with piracy and you know it. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/53 "2008-11-22T05:30:20Z")
> [@Uvula\_Donor](#): > > So, because I don’t really care whether digital piracy is immoral or illegal, that means _I’m_ an immoral lawbreaker? Who the fuck are\* you?\* > > That’s a rhetorical question; no need to answer. I was serious when I said I didn’t give a fuck what you think. Do you make it a habit of dropping into every thread you are uninterested in and leaving a turd? The last thread you started, back in April, was entitled [Nutter Butters: Creme Patties or Sandwich Cookies?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=463701) I didn’t jump in there and shit out “I don’t give a fuck which one you like!”, so what the hell is your problem? ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/54 "2008-11-22T05:31:11Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > An indescribably high value is not “without value”. Priceless is not synonymous with worthless. So your daughter has a monetary value, then? Theoretically, if I had enough money, I could buy your daughter from you? > [@Absolute](#): > > They would install it on one PC and the students would share access to it. Well, that certainly sounds like a great educational environment. By the way, your link explicitly states that institutions of higher learning, and _everyone_ outside of a select number of first-world countries, are not eligible for free Adobe software. ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/55 "2008-11-22T05:34:12Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > Inability to afford something doesn’t make it ethical to steal. I didn’t say that was always the case, so please, knock it off. I gave an example where the thing being stolen wasn’t an actual thing and the stealing of it caused no financial loss to the company that provided it and was not stolen out of greed and it absolutely could not be obtained legally due to cost. The person doing the stealing also believes by doing so it will make it more possible to be a contributing member of society. What makes the theft in my case as explained unethical? ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/56 "2008-11-22T05:35:39Z")
> [@Hostile\_Dialect](#): > > So your daughter has a monetary value, then? Theoretically, if I had enough money, I could buy your daughter from you? If you’re not even going to bother to read the entirety of my posts before responding to them, this whole exercise is pointless. I’m not going to repeat myself. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/57 "2008-11-22T05:35:59Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > Do you make it a habit of dropping into every thread you are uninterested in and leaving a turd? > > The last thread you started, back in April, was entitled [Nutter Butters: Creme Patties or Sandwich Cookies?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=463701) I didn’t jump in there and shit out “I don’t give a fuck which one you like!”, so what the hell is your problem? He wasn’t even responding to you, shithead. Stay on topic. ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/58 "2008-11-22T05:58:46Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > In the meantime, it’s their software, that they have spent their time and money to develop, and they should have the right to set the price at which they are compensated for their efforts. Not you. Musicians aren’t allowed to set the market price if a new band wants to create a cover version of the song. There is a statutory price, and the only negotiating room is under it because if the intellectual property owner refuses to budge, a cover band can simply end the negotiations, pay the government-listed price, and go on with their music. Software is obviously different in many ways, but there is at least a precedent for forcing an intellectual property owner to accept a fair price, as determined by government fiat. Obviously, creators should be paid for their efforts, but eventually we reach a point that the value in spreading the data outweighs the owner’s stubbornness. It is not unreasonable in the slightest that we force these creators to give up some control over distribution, potentially including price in certain circumstances, as long as we stringently enforce their right to be adequately compensated for their work, so that we can be assured that new inspired souls will enter these fields in the future and bless us with more such creations. Of course, this is a nuanced position, which you claimed not to want in the OP. But you personally entered this nuance into the picture: You simply cannot make blanket claims about owners having a right to set the price when many do not possess such a right in different mediums. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/59 "2008-11-22T05:58:56Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > If you’re not even going to bother to read the entirety of my posts before responding to them, this whole exercise is pointless. I’m not going to repeat myself. I read the whole thing. I didn’t quote the whole thing because that’s just silly; any reader can scroll right up and see the whole thing. To prove I read your post, I’m going to retype it in its entirety in Spanish: > [@](#): > > El gran valor indescribable no es la falta de valor. “Sin precio” no es sinónimo con “sin valor”. > > Todo del valor _se puede_ estar expresado por lo que se refiere al dinero - había dar cualquier cantidad de dinero para guardar a la vida de uno de mi familia. Esto no quiere decir que no tienen valor; quiere decir que, en mi estimación, son las cosas mas valuables en el universo. > > **ZebraShaSha** dije que cree que los objetos fisicales no tienen valor. Yo no veo como esto quiere decir nada sin “cero valor”. Now, respond to my argument and apologize, or I’ll be left with no option but to conclude that you are truly and hopelessly full of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948/60 "2008-11-22T06:06:27Z")
> [@Hostile\_Dialect](#): > > I read the whole thing. I didn’t quote the whole thing because that’s just silly; any reader can scroll right up and see the whole thing. To prove I read your post, I’m going to retype it in its entirety in Spanish: > > Now, respond to my argument and apologize, or I’ll be left with no option but to conclude that you are truly and hopelessly full of shit. I said: > [@Absolute](#): > > All worth can be expressed in monetary terms - **I would give any amount of money to save the life of one of my relatives**. That doesn’t mean they’re worthless, it means they’re the most valuable things in the universe to me. And then you replied with: > [@Hostile Dialect](#): > > So your daughter has a monetary value, then? Theoretically, if I had enough money, I could buy your daughter from you? I answered that question in the bolded section of the post you were replying to. No one could give me enough money to buy my daughter from me - she is the most valuable thing in the universe. That is the _complete opposite_ of valueless. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-defend-pirating-content-movies-music-books-software-whatever/473948.md?page=4)