# Who wants to go live in India? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 5, 2005, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-go-live-in-india/302617 "2005-05-05T23:54:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![biddee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@biddee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/biddee)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-go-live-in-india/302617/1 "2005-05-05T23:54:20Z")
> **[The Times & The Sunday Times](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/)** > > News and opinion from The Times & The Sunday Times This is just horrific. What century are we in, where a woman can be forced to marry her rapist and where a rapist can escape punishment by offering to marry his victim? This story left me stunned. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-go-live-in-india/302617/2 "2005-05-06T01:24:07Z")
She said no. Did you read the story? ---
**Author:** ![biddee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@biddee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/biddee)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-go-live-in-india/302617/3 "2005-05-06T01:29:01Z")
Yes, I read it, did you? > [@](#): > > He did not succeed but others have. Rape carries such a stigma in India that few men will countenance marrying a rape victim and in several cases, families have pressured raped daughters into marrying their assailants in order to avoid dishonour, even after conviction. In one case, police refused to take details of a rape until they had tried to persuade the parents to marry the victim to her assailant. In another, the marriage took place in the courtroom after the victim’s parents demanded it. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-go-live-in-india/302617/4 "2005-05-06T01:29:52Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > She said no. > > Did you read the story? I am guessing not. The story also saidre > [@](#): > > The court imposed two life sentences on the convicted man but only after the woman rejected his proposal and expressed her outrage. “After he was found guilty, he is trying to escape punishment with the bogus offer,” she told the court. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-go-live-in-india/302617/5 "2005-05-06T01:41:54Z")
> [@biddee](#): > > [The Times & The Sunday Times](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1598048,00.html) > > This is just horrific. What century are we in, where a woman can be forced to marry her rapist and where a rapist can escape punishment by offering to marry his victim? > > This story left me stunned. I’m still looking for the forced part. The woman said no…he goes to jail. Point out the forced if you would please. ---
**Author:** ![monica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a183cd/32.png) [@monica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monica)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-go-live-in-india/302617/6 "2005-05-06T01:50:19Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > I’m still looking for the forced part. The woman said no…he goes to jail. > > Point out the forced if you would please. Not forced int his particular case, but look at the other ones: > [@](#): > > Rape carries such a stigma in India that few men will countenance marrying a rape victim and in several cases, families have pressured raped daughters into marrying their assailants in order to avoid dishonour, even after conviction. In one case, police refused to take details of a rape until they had tried to persuade the parents to marry the victim to her assailant. In another, the marriage took place in the courtroom after the victim’s parents demanded it. ---
**Author:** ![BlueKangaroo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@BlueKangaroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlueKangaroo)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-go-live-in-india/302617/7 "2005-05-06T01:51:09Z")
The bottom of the story is about other men who have succeeded at this (under “Honor and obey”). I suspect that’s what **biddee** is commenting on. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-go-live-in-india/302617/8 "2005-05-06T01:57:29Z")
Would it be wrong of me to opine that this is totally fucked up? ---
**Author:** ![biddee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@biddee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/biddee)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-go-live-in-india/302617/9 "2005-05-06T02:09:54Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > I’m still looking for the forced part. The woman said no…he goes to jail. > > Point out the forced if you would please. I was actually commenting on the part at the bottom of the story where it says that some victims are ‘pressured’ into marrying the rapist and where one woman’s parent’s demanded that she marry her rapist. If that isn’t being forced, I don’t know what is. I’m sorry I didn’t make myself more clear in the OP. I am very glad that this rapist got his just desserts, but the fact that she had to come to court to face him and to answer this horrible ‘offer’ is just fucked up IMO. Can you imagine what would happen in a US court if a rapist said he would marry his victim to escape punishment? Can you imagine a rape victim in the US having to come to court so that her rapist could ask her to marry him? It’s just beyond my belief. ---
**Author:** ![gouda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c77e96/32.png) [@gouda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gouda)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-go-live-in-india/302617/10 "2005-05-06T08:49:56Z")
It is extremely fucked up. When I first read that story, I thought it was a hoax… obviously, I was wrong. Rape victims in India are severely mistreated, very often being simply cast out of their families. Even if there were state support for these victims, most would rather keep quiet about it rather than become societal _pariahs_, which is what happens. It’s a sick, sick situation that seemingly has no cure… ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-go-live-in-india/302617/11 "2005-05-06T08:59:50Z")
A friend of mine is moving there in about six weeks, actually. This is deeply fucked-up, but I wouldn’t pin anything on India. Stigma against rape victims is extremely common, sad to say. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-go-live-in-india/302617/12 "2005-05-06T09:31:24Z")
To answer OP title: Who wants to go live in India? Rapists interested in marriage? ---
**Author:** ![Aankh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@Aankh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aankh)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-go-live-in-india/302617/13 "2005-05-06T12:07:07Z")
> [@gouda](#): > > It’s a sick, sick situation that seemingly has no cure… ☹ I disagree. It IS a sick situation, and slowly but surely, it IS getting cured. In places where education has made significant inroads (urban areas), the frequency of such occurrences has diminished and is in the process of diminishing further. There is no getting around the fact that we Indians have a heavily patriarchal society and an _extremely_ pro-male history. I won’t deny this. However, always keep in mind our population. When you have 1 billion people, you cannot leave behind centuries of baggage without a thought. That too, these billion people are so diverse that entering a different state sometimes feels like one has entered a different country entirely. Different languages (not dialects, not accents - _languages_), different customs, different economies, different cuisines, different physical traits…it’s ridiculous. When you have an entity this large, the inertia against change is such a massive thing in itself, it _will_ take time to get things moving. And things _are_ moving. Change _is_ happening. We have a judicial system in place which absolutely recognises that rape is unjustified under any circumstance. We have human rights activists who are doing their best to change the tide. We have ordinary citizens who strongly agree that what happened was wrong. So, **Mr. Blue Sky** , it _is_ fucked up. However, the cure will come. Give it time. A belief structure cultivated over thousands of years and accepted by a behemoth social entity is not going to disappear in an instant, much as we would all like it to. ---
**Author:** ![biddee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@biddee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/biddee)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-go-live-in-india/302617/14 "2005-05-06T12:56:11Z")
> [@aankh](#): > > I disagree. It IS a sick situation, and slowly but surely, it IS getting cured. In places where education has made significant inroads (urban areas), the frequency of such occurrences has diminished and is in the process of diminishing further. > > We have a judicial system in place which absolutely recognises that rape is unjustified under any circumstance. Very well put **aankh** , and I do see your point, but in the article there are two references to where the judicial system is condoning this behaviour, the first being this very case itself. Just the fact that the judiciary even entertained the notion that he was offering to marry the girl he so viciously raped is an abomination and I’m very glad to see that she had so much support from activists and such. But what if her parents had forced her to marry him? What would have happened then? Would he have gotten off scott free? > [@](#): > > August 2004: A woman judge in Delhi orders the release from jail of Karan Singh, accused of raping a mentally disabled teenager, after he agreed to marry her. The judge said his offer proved he had repented. The second is this woman judge (who one would assume is well educated). I would hate to imagine what that marriage is like now! Both of these situations negate your argument that the judicial system thinks rape is unjustified in any circumstance. I hope that change comes a lot more quickly than it seems to be at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Aankh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@Aankh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aankh)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-go-live-in-india/302617/15 "2005-05-06T13:13:37Z")
> [@biddee](#): > > The second is this woman judge (who one would assume is well educated). I would hate to imagine what that marriage is like now! Both of these situations negate your argument that the judicial system thinks rape is unjustified in any circumstance. Actually, this exemplifies what I meant when I mentioned ‘centuries of baggage’. The thing is, in India, marriage was not in the past and is not now a simple thing. It is not just about two people deciding to spend their lives together. The traditional conception of marriage has been that of two very extended families joining together to a very intimate extent by Western standards. It is a union of two people, their families, their economics, their everything. Hence the prevalence of arranged marriages; families couldn’t risk having their kids marrying anybody that caught their fancy - it had to be a person right for the family as a whole. So an offer of marriage is not just a random thing in India. It carried the stamp of being a Big Deal. This is what probably influenced the judge who was listening to the case. > [@biddee](#): > > The second is this woman judge (who one would assume is well educated). I would hate to imagine what that marriage is like now! Both of these situations negate your argument that the judicial system thinks rape is unjustified in any circumstance. Two judges do not an entire system make. > [@Catherine Philip for the Times](#): > > The decision, which caused widespread outrage, is proving to be a large embarrassment for the Indian judiciary, which stands accused of putting medieval attitudes towards women above justice. So, the judge IS being roasted. And justifiably so. See, you can be educated and you can still want to hold on to your traditional way of life. Not everyone adapts to change at the same pace. I wish I could snap my fingers and have everything be okay. That’s not going to happen. Like I said, give it time. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-go-live-in-india/302617/16 "2005-05-06T13:21:13Z")
I agree with the people who say it’s a terrible, terrible thing, and my birth country (which still holds some of my allegiance) definitely falls down in the treatment of women. But, and \*\*aankh \*\* puts this much more eloquently than me, they’re trying. They’re the only Third World country I conceivably see stepping into the First World before long. Hell, they’re already halfway there. Things do not happen overnight, and having seen what happened to other countries, India wants to make things right and yet keep their culture and traditions. Of course there’s going to be clashes between the two. Rape is a particularly powerful stigma in India. When I read the memoirs of the Bandit Queen I wept, hearing how many times she’d been raped simply for being a woman…but again, it’s not going to change in a heartbeat. The worst, IMO, are the fathers who feel their honor has been smirched when their daughter is raped. Disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-go-live-in-india/302617/17 "2005-05-06T13:23:47Z")
Did I really say _smirched_? I think I meant to say \*besmirched \* but now I can’t remember what word is right at all! ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-go-live-in-india/302617/18 "2005-05-06T13:43:00Z")
Actually, smirch and besmirch have identical meanings. And use of either appropriately expresses of your meaning. ---
**Author:** ![biddee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@biddee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/biddee)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-go-live-in-india/302617/19 "2005-05-06T13:53:09Z")
**aankh** , you’re right and I want to thank you for that insight into your culture. It’s always fascinating to me to hear of the ins and outs of other cultures and the Indian culture is one that is so rich and full of colour. It would be wonderful if they could keep the good parts and discard the bad although who gets to decide which is which? It must be a frustrating excercise. **Aanamika** , I haven’t read that book, will definitely try and pick up a copy. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-go-live-in-india/302617/20 "2005-05-06T13:56:25Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > Actually, smirch and besmirch have identical meanings. And use of either appropriately expresses of your meaning. This would be an appropriate place for the use of my sig, I think. Just disregard the second part. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-wants-to-go-live-in-india/302617.md?page=2)