# Who was behind 9/11 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2003, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-behind-9-11/210188 "2003-10-29T06:13:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2003, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-behind-9-11/210188/61 "2003-11-01T12:40:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*Razorsharp: Would you be so kind as to provide some citations to support your assertions in that last posting? \*\* No, but I’ll tell you what I will do. I will help you. You know the old proverb, “Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, but teach a man to fish and he will eat every day”? Here, I’m going to teach you to fish. Highlight and copy these two names: Hemant Lakhani, Yehuda Abraham Now, click on this link: [http://www.google.com](http://www.google.com) Now, go to the search window and paste the two names that you just copied. Now, click on the button labeled “google search”. See what happened? It’s almost like magic. Have fun. ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Saul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58f4c7/32.png) [@Roland\_Saul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Saul)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2003, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-behind-9-11/210188/62 "2003-11-01T12:58:44Z")
Interesting link, that .mil one… Of course there would be no bias there, no ulterior motives for mistranslation or outright lies. Frankly, I don’t trust ANYTHING emanating from the American government or the American military. Why not? Am I some conspiracy theorist anti-American kook? Nope. Just a guy who sees nothing but blatant lies coming from the Bush administration from the get-go. It’s quite clear that this whole invasion was prefaced by a web of lies, so why would this be any different? I can’t make the leap of faith required to justify killing tens of thousands on this. Still the same question… is there any concrete proof? So far, all that’s been forthcoming is far from conclusive, and IMHO in the Betty and Barney Hill realm of validity. Has anybody outside of the military actually seen this tape? Perhaps watched it with an Arab speaker? Or are we content to take the word of those who brought us the outright fraud of the statue-toppling scenes? I wonder about the origins of the tape also. Did an el-quaida operative just conveniently leave it on the shelf at the pentagon? Is the Arab world denied access to decent video equipment? Are they incapable of producing legible audio on their productions? Has anybody seen an INDEPENDENT translation of what’s on the tape? Can we prove who the speakers are? Still stinks. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2003, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-behind-9-11/210188/63 "2003-11-01T13:59:51Z")
[The British Government’s initial case, before the tape.](http://www.unitedjustice.com/stories/evidence.html). Here, [Some were convinced](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A40846-2001Dec13¬Found=true%5B/url) by the tape. For example: > [@](#): > > …the Council on American Islamic Relations would take no position on the government’s allegation that bin Laden was behind the Sept. 11 attacks. “Now, it’s clear from the statements in the videotape that he was complicit in the attacks and had foreknowledge of the attacks,” spokesman Ibrahim Hooper said, adding that he was “sickened” by bin Laden’s contention that Islam had somehow benefited from the attacks. and, most importantly, [The Bible Code](http://www.greaterthings.com/News/911/ELSBibleCode/binLadenGuilty.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2003, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-behind-9-11/210188/64 "2003-11-01T14:46:08Z")
Slight hijack… what got Daisy Cutter finally banned ? Or was it awarded for his overall performance ? ---
**Author:** ![Asteroide](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@Asteroide](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asteroide)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2003, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-behind-9-11/210188/65 "2003-11-01T14:50:12Z")
From your Brit Gov link > [@](#): > > There is evidence of a very specific nature relating to the guilt of Bin Laden and his associates that is too sensitive to release. Well, that’s intriguing. Arabic usage question- is the personal pronoun OBL uses - which is translated as “we” - unambiguous ? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2003, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-behind-9-11/210188/66 "2003-11-01T15:27:01Z")
And I’m going to help you, Razor, to be as sharp as one: When YOU assert something, it’s YOUR responsibility to provide proof of that assertion. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2003, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-behind-9-11/210188/67 "2003-11-01T15:48:41Z")
What more proof is required? The story broke of a man who was caught smuggling shoulder-fired missles into the United States. Being that we are in a so-called “war on terror”, wouldn’t you say that smuggling such armaments into the country is quite newsworthy? Then all of a sudden, the story was gone without really being resolved. Down the “memory hole”. Don’t you find that somewhat suspicious? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2003, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-behind-9-11/210188/68 "2003-11-01T16:10:43Z")
Ah, so you expect me to go just on your say-so. I’ll keep that in mind. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2003, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-behind-9-11/210188/69 "2003-11-01T16:36:00Z")
> [@](#): > > What more proof is required? The story broke of a man who was caught smuggling shoulder-fired missles into the United States. **Razorsharp** , have you even read a description of the case your are blathering about? Firstly, the arrests of Lakhani and Abraham resulted from a two-year sting operation conducted jointly by agencies of the US, British and Russian governments. Both the suppliers and the intended recipient of the missiles were associated with the investigation. Abraham’s role apparently was to launder some of the finances for Lakhani’s purchase. The only missile ever brought to the States was a single inert round supplied by the agents conducting the sting. Here, read this summary for yourself: [http://1010wins.com/topstories/winstopstories\_story\_224173406.html](http://1010wins.com/topstories/winstopstories_story_224173406.html) As for your further blather about this story going down the ‘memory hole’, the arrests were made in mid-August. Quick, now, when do the defendants go to trial? Since you are so well-informed about this case, you should have no trouble answering that question. Do you think maybe, just maybe, that part of the reason that the case is not currently front-page news is that no other persons appear to have been involved and that it has not yet gone to trial? It’s completely unclear to me what you think the significance is of the 76-year-old Mr. Abraham being Jewish, what relevance you think this story has to the OP, or why you think this story has been suppressed in any way. Care to explain? Here endeth the hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2003, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-behind-9-11/210188/70 "2003-11-01T17:19:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. Miskatonic \* > \*\*Bill has an even better one: > > 5 Isrealis stand on a roof observing the fire and collapse of the WTC. THey took a few pictures. A neighbor hears them talking and, not knowing Hebrew from Arabic, complains to the police that there are Arabs singing and dancing on a nearby roof. Police come by, later the 5 are followed, but there’s nothing to what they are doing except speaking loudly in Hebrew(in shock). Some jump to the conclusion that they are ‘celebrating’ and are briefly arrested, 'casue they look like Arabs dontcha know. > > Later, in the conspiracy press, their actions are magnified, and they magically become vetern Mossad agents. Their van is full of maps with strategic points marked. Of course only the kookpress has these important details. \*\* Bill has a better what? Excuse? Doing nothing “except speaking loudly in Hebrew”?? Come on, get real. It’s not hard to discern the difference in speaking loudly in a foreign tongue, of which there is much in the NYC area, and recognizing behavior described as “cries of joy and mockery”. I can easily imagine that there were many groups of people looking at the scene of the WTC tragedy. The behavior of this group stood out and caused enough concern for a witness to call police. You can tell whether a dog is either happy or angry by it’s demeanor without understanding its bark. ---
**Author:** ![dal\_timgar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@dal\_timgar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dal_timgar)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2003, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-behind-9-11/210188/71 "2003-11-01T17:20:55Z")
If you use google to dearch on “algerian terrorists” “paris” “1994” you can find sites talking about a hijacking attempt on christmas eve 1994. The arab terrorists intended to crash a plane in Paris. It failed because the plane was on the ground in Marsailles and French commandos boarded the plane. This failed MO from 1994 combined with the target of the bombing in 1993 is exactly what happened in 2001. What was the FAA thinking for 6 years? Why hasn’t the media been all over the FAA for the last 2 years? All we hear is. What did the FBI know 3 weeks before? What did the CIA know 5 weeks before. The FAA should have seen the handwriting on the wall SIX YEARS before. I have seen this hijacking attempt.mentioned on TV 3 times. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2003, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-behind-9-11/210188/72 "2003-11-01T18:37:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*This is my current odds-on guess on why those five guys were cheering and videotaping themselves – not because they (or their government) planned the attacks, but because they knew (via pre-9/11 intel?) that this meant the full brunt of the United States would now be brought on against those responsible. > \*\* Just speculation, but this sounds right. I suspect there were allies in Western Europe who guiltily shouted “Yes!” when Pearl Harbor was bombed as well. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2003, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-behind-9-11/210188/73 "2003-11-02T13:52:34Z")
I just re-read rjung’s post, and I don’t agree that there was pre-9/11 intel fueling this. More plausible to me that the 5 men, like 99% of the rest of us, immediately speculated that it was an attack that had its origin in Middle Eastern radical Islam, much like the last terrorist attack on the WTC. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2003, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-behind-9-11/210188/74 "2003-11-02T14:06:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dal\_timgar \* > This failed MO from 1994 combined with the target of the bombing in 1993 is exactly what happened in 2001. What was the FAA thinking for 6 years? Why hasn’t the media been all over the FAA for the last 2 years? > > All we hear is. What did the FBI know 3 weeks before? What did the CIA know 5 weeks before. The FAA should have seen the handwriting on the wall SIX YEARS before. I have seen this hijacking attempt.mentioned on TV 3 times. OK, dude - just WHAT do YOU think the FAA should have done in that intervening six years? ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2003, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-behind-9-11/210188/75 "2003-11-02T15:01:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by El\_Kabong \* > **As for your further blather about this story going down the ‘memory hole’, the arrests were made in mid-August. Quick, now, when do the defendants go to trial? Since you are so well-informed about this case, you should have no trouble answering that question. Do you think maybe, just maybe, that part of the reason that the case is not currently front-page news is that no other persons appear to have been involved and that it has not yet gone to trial?** I admit, you do make a good point, but that also depends on the motives of the “Ministry of Truth”. For example, take the James Byrd dragging death. Did that story die between the arrests and the trial? How about the arrest of O. J. Simpson, did the murder of Nicole Brown Simpson go down the “memory hole” inbetween the arrest and trial? Hell, even the the murder of Bonnie Bakley would rise to the surface every now and then between the arrest and trial. Of course, you may say that those cases attract the public’s attention due to the celebrity component, and that may very well be true, but that relies on the assumption that the public is not interested in knowing who is behind smuggling shoulder-launched missles into the United States. Ultimately, it is the “Ministry of Truth” that decides what is suitable for public consumption, just as it is the “Ministry of Entertainment” that decides what the public “wants”. And the sad thing about it is that the majority of the public doesn’t know any better and laps up whatever pabulum is fed to them. Meanwhile, there still yet exists a significant portion of the pupulation that yearns to know about matters that are truly important and don’t really believe it when they are told that they can’t know “for reasons of national security”. > [@](#): > > **It’s completely unclear to me what you think the significance is of the 76-year-old Mr. Abraham being Jewish, what relevance you think this story has to the OP, or why you think this story has been suppressed in any way. Care to explain?** Well, lets mention an event that the “Ministry of Truth” has been trying to keep down the “memory hole” for over forty years now. The attack on the U.S.S Liberty by the armed forces of modern-day Israel. Yes, the incident does occasionally rise up out of the hole, but the “Ministry of Truth” has been able push it back down behind the smokescreen of “mistaken identity”. But there is an aspect to the incident that makes the issue of “mistaken identity” irrelevant. After sustaining heavy damage from attacks from the Israeli Air Force and torpedo and machine gun attack from Israeli naval forces, the Liberty was “dead in the water”. The Liberty’s crew then began to lower lifeboats into the water, both to help their fellow sailors who had been blown into the water and in anticipation of having to abandon ship. The Israeli gunboats then machine-gunned the lifeboats. Let me repeat that, “THEY MACHINE-GUNNED THE LIFEBOATS”. That is a WAR CRIME of the most heinous nature. Now, are you starting to see a pattern here? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2003, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-behind-9-11/210188/76 "2003-11-02T15:23:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Now, are you starting to see a pattern here? No. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2003, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-behind-9-11/210188/77 "2003-11-02T15:30:47Z")
There are none so blind, as those who absolutely refuse to see. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2003, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-behind-9-11/210188/78 "2003-11-02T17:27:38Z")
See what, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-behind-9-11/210188/79 "2003-11-03T03:42:59Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Razorsharp_\* After sustaining heavy damage from attacks from the Israeli Air Force and torpedo and machine gun attack from Israeli naval forces, the Liberty was “dead in the water”. The Liberty’s crew then began to lower lifeboats into the water, both to help their fellow sailors who had been blown into the water and in anticipation of having to abandon ship. > > The Israeli gunboats then machine-gunned the lifeboats. Let me repeat that, “THEY MACHINE-GUNNED THE LIFEBOATS”. > > That is a WAR CRIME of the most heinous nature. Now, are you starting to see a pattern here? \*\* No, becuase the evidence for such an action is weak and contradictory. The Captain, for example, never ordered an abondoning of the ship. There’s only accounts of empty rafts being shot (along with most fo the ship), a further account from Lloyd Painter notes that the rafts were already shot up when they were dropped into the water, apparently a few was dropped into the water, uninflated. Probably because they were damaged. There’s also the fun of the primary ‘witness’ of this war crime having been below decks from being treated from wound from early in the attack. Oh, and the vast majority of the Liberty’s crew make no mention of such an act, a detail conspiracy nutters try to ignore. That’s enough of that tangent. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-behind-9-11/210188/80 "2003-11-03T06:05:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. Miskatonic \* > \*\* Lloyd Painter notes that the rafts were already shot up when they were dropped into the water, apparently a few was dropped into the water, uninflated. Probably because they were damaged. > \*\* Correction to my post: The rafts were never shot, inflated or not. One raft was recovered by the IDF, not shot at. I don’t know how I typed that first bit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-behind-9-11/210188.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-behind-9-11/210188.md?page=5)