# Who was Buffy's Best "Big Bad"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 14, 2015, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376 "2015-12-14T00:34:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/21 "2015-12-14T12:50:39Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Loved the Mayor, but voted Angelus. > > The moment where he killed Jenny Calendar makes him my pick. He’s not just an evil vampire. He’s a psycho. Yep. I preferred seasons 3 and 4, but Season 2 is what announced, to me, that this was a truly excellent show. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/22 "2015-12-14T13:29:25Z")
Now that the mayor has won, can we debate the same question for Angel? For me Angels best big bad is Jasmine. A big bad so morally ambiguous even the team itself was partly unhappy she was vanquished. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/23 "2015-12-14T13:49:28Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Now that the mayor has won, can we debate the same question for Angel? For me Angels best big bad is Jasmine. A big bad so morally ambiguous even the team itself was partly unhappy she was vanquished. Yeah, there is no debate. Jasmine by a mile. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/24 "2015-12-14T14:05:22Z")
Another vote for the mayor. He was the most developed character. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/25 "2015-12-14T14:52:25Z")
The Mayor is beating Glory by something like 3.5 to 1??? Are you people mad? MAD??? Who would you rather see in a bubble-bath? 😉 (Kidding aside, you all make some good points) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/26 "2015-12-14T15:51:58Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > The Mayor is beating Glory by something like 3.5 to 1??? Are you people mad? MAD??? Who would you rather see in a bubble-bath? Then the poll question should have been, “Who was Buffy’s Best ‘Big Bad’ (in a bubble bath)?” And even then the answer might not be Glory, since The First can assume any form (including Glory’s!) as long as the original wearer thereof is now dead. Which Glory is. Thanks to Giles. So as long as you don’t quibble about sudsy Evil (“seevil”) you could have a week of bubble baths with all sorts of hotties: Ampara (“Inca Mummy Girl;”) Buffy herself; Kendra; Cordelia; Drusilla; Jenny Calendar; Veruca (Oz’s wolf fling); Harmony; Anya; Tara; Winifred “Fred” (obviously Angel and Buffy share a 'verse); Jasmine (sans maggots); and if you’re in a MILF mood, Joyce and Prof. Walsh are available. Just be sure to scrub extra well. Because of the evil. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/27 "2015-12-14T16:10:09Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Yeah, there is no debate. Jasmine by a mile. I always like Lilah, myself. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/28 "2015-12-14T16:19:39Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > I always like Lilah, myself. Me too…but do we think she rose to the level of Big Bad? I admit my memory of _Angel_ is a little fuzzy, but as I recall she was always an underling, albeit a powerful one. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/29 "2015-12-14T17:01:50Z")
re Angel - Are you people nuts? Did you even _watch_ the show? The answer was then and is now the same one shown in “Reprise” \*\*Angel \*\*Season 2, Episode 15. When he hits the ground, Angel puts on the ring, causing elevator doors to open in the foundation of the Wolfram & Hart building. Holland (whose contract extends well beyond death) offers Angel a one-way trip down to the “Home Office,” which Angel assumes is Hell. After passing through nether realms of darkness and fire, the elevator comes to a stop and its doors open - right back where they started. The “Home Office” is Earth, the implication being that Angel can never rescue humanity because **humanity is its own worst enemy**. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/30 "2015-12-14T17:38:57Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Me too…but do we think she rose to the level of Big Bad? I admit my memory of _Angel_ is a little fuzzy, but as I recall she was always an underling, albeit a powerful one. No, she wasn’t a true Big Bad. But she and Lindsey were around for a long time, Lindsey even made it back for the finale. Much more interesting than most of the Big Bads on Angel, which were for the most part a bunch of duds. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/31 "2015-12-14T17:46:25Z")
I voted Angelus. Which I have done before: [QUOTE=BrotherCadfael] Based on nearly half a century of horror fandom, I’ve often argued that Angelus from _Buffy the Vampire Slayer_ and _Angel The Series_ is one of the most terrifying of screen villains. I think it is a combination of the contrast with his non-evil, rather tediously mopey Angel persona, and the sheer delight he takes in his sadism - which, it should be noted is as much psychological as physical, although he certainly doesn’t scorn physical sadism. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/32 "2015-12-14T17:50:09Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > No, she wasn’t a true Big Bad. But she and Lindsey were around for a long time, Lindsey even made it back for the finale. Much more interesting than most of the Big Bads on Angel, which were for the most part a bunch of duds. Lindsey & Lilah deserve special mention as long-term adversaries. Who looked good! Lindsey gets extra points for his “Evil Hand.” And Lilah for her relationship with Wesley–after his character turned darkish… ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/33 "2015-12-14T18:37:54Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > re Angel - Are you people nuts? Did you even _watch_ the show? The answer was then and is now the same one shown in “Reprise” \*\*Angel \*\*Season 2, Episode 15. > > When he hits the ground, Angel puts on the ring, causing elevator doors to open in the foundation of the Wolfram & Hart building. Holland (whose contract extends well beyond death) offers Angel a one-way trip down to the “Home Office,” which Angel assumes is Hell. After passing through nether realms of darkness and fire, the elevator comes to a stop and its doors open - right back where they started. The “Home Office” is Earth, the implication being that Angel can never rescue humanity because **humanity is its own worst enemy**. Angel of his own show? Maybe. Angel/Angelus in Buffy was (IMO) a big sucky ball of whine. He was like taking ‘a big slab of beefcake’ (or however Lorne phrased it) scooping out all the jock and poured a whiney 16-year-old emo-goth-douche into the shell. It’s weird–Angel, on his own show is funny, self-depricating and aware that he’s a whiny sniveller. Angel, whenever he gets anywhere near Buffy just sucks (and she’s only marginally better.) ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/34 "2015-12-14T18:42:35Z")
Missed the point. Angel on _Buffy_ was a good Big Bad. Not the best, but not bad. My last post was referencing those people who questioned who the Best Big Bad on _Angel_ was. The answer to that was and is as stated. That was kinda the point of the whole show, and was even the theme of the finale. Glory was a pussy. Her henchmen were moderately funny, but she herself was a bore. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/35 "2015-12-14T19:32:03Z")
The Mayor, of the listed choices. Best line: “And watch the swearing.” But Spike (before falling for Buffy) would be my choice. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/36 "2015-12-14T20:44:11Z")
The Mayor, not only does he do despicable acts of evil, but does so with a smile on his face, a chipper attitude, and good manners. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/37 "2015-12-14T21:15:21Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > Glory’s plan resulted in dead Buffy. Nobody else managed that, best I recall. I voted for the Mayor, but I _think_ the Master fulfilled a prophecy by killing Buffy. Am I remembering that right? (She got better.) ---
**Author:** ![HowSoonIsThen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@HowSoonIsThen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HowSoonIsThen)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/38 "2015-12-14T21:19:52Z")
Angel’s best big bad is Holtz. But it didn’t have big bads in the same way Buffy did. Season 3 and 4 did, but the rest it was essentially just Wolfram and Hart. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/39 "2015-12-14T21:53:44Z")
> [@HowSoonIsThen](#): > > Angel’s best big bad is Holtz. But it didn’t have big bads in the same way Buffy did. Season 3 and 4 did, but the rest it was essentially just Wolfram and Hart. How about (the really annoying) Darla? She was a major antagonist for the better part of two or three seasons, wasn’t she? You could also count…whatshername. The female lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/40 "2015-12-14T22:16:23Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > You could also count…whatshername. The female lawyer. That’s Lilah, who with Lindsey (the guy who got his hand chopped off by Angel) were supporting players for a good part of the show. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376.md?page=3)