# Who was Buffy's Best "Big Bad"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 14, 2015, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376 "2015-12-14T00:34:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/41 "2015-12-14T23:02:52Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > That’s Lilah, who with Lindsey (the guy who got his hand chopped off by Angel) were supporting players for a good part of the show. I don’t know why I can’t remember her name. She’s a whole lot more interesting (and a better actor) than Darla, who (as I mentioned) sucks as an actress and a character. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/42 "2015-12-14T23:05:13Z")
The mayor. Honorable mention for Angelus, mainly for the season finale, where his soul is restored . . . and Buffy has to send him to hell anyway. In my opinion, Professor Walsh was a bigger bad than Adam. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/43 "2015-12-15T00:46:57Z")
Angel, definitely Angel. BTW, on Buffy they didn’t call him Angelus to denote he’d gone evil, that didn’t start until on Angel. On Buffy they just used Angelus as his old name (which it was). Adam was a big dud. The real big bad that year was the way things change and people start drifting apart after HS. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/44 "2015-12-15T01:21:34Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > In my opinion, Professor Walsh was a bigger bad than Adam. I thought about that, but the change from Tough, Professional Professor Walsh to weird sex-obsessed with Reilly Mommy Complex Walsh was like one episode. I mean, it felt like somewhere around S04E14 they thought “Oh _SHIT!_ We forgot the Big Bad :smack: Um…we’ll make Professor Walsh build him, right? That’ll work. Then we’ll have him kill her so he can be, like sooper-evil.” If they’d been building her up from the beginning, I’d have given it to her rather than Adam, but she was only evil for maybe 3 episodes or so\* and that’s not enough for the Big Bad. (Adam only gets the nod because he was bad for more episodes (her? 2 or 3. Him 8 or so) Actually, if it comes down to it, Faith did a crapload more damage to Buffy in her two-parter than Adam actually did. 😉 And, since I’m on a rewatching Buffy/Angel marathon binge (I only saw them once around 2000 or so), I just remembered who Angel’s true big-bad is: Connor. He’s as annoying as Darla AND as whiny as emo-goth-Buffy’s Angel. \*Before that, she was channeling the tough-but-fair professor from The Paper Chase. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/45 "2015-12-15T08:08:21Z")
I just realized that the Mayor reminds me a bit of Donald Trump. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/46 "2015-12-15T08:40:36Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > I just realized that the Mayor reminds me a bit of Donald Trump. :eek: No. ---
**Author:** ![Garula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ea666f/32.png) [@Garula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garula)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/47 "2015-12-15T08:57:56Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Angel of his own show? Maybe. Angel/Angelus in Buffy was (IMO) a big sucky ball of whine. He was like taking ‘a big slab of beefcake’ (or however Lorne phrased it) scooping out all the jock and poured a whiney 16-year-old emo-goth-douche into the shell. It’s weird–Angel, on his own show is funny, self-depricating and aware that he’s a whiny sniveller. Angel, whenever he gets anywhere near Buffy just sucks (and she’s only marginally better.) I completely, wholeheartedly agree. It’s kind of astonishing how much better characters Angel, Cordy, and Wesley became when they moved to LA. ---
**Author:** ![HowSoonIsThen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@HowSoonIsThen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HowSoonIsThen)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/48 "2015-12-15T11:16:33Z")
Angel and Wesley were much better on Angel the series. Cordelia, on the other hand, became pretty awful as the show progressed. Season 4 Cordy was absolutely terrible. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/49 "2015-12-15T11:29:54Z")
> [@HowSoonIsThen](#): > > Angel and Wesley were much better on Angel the series. Cordelia, on the other hand, became pretty awful as the show progressed. Season 4 Cordy was absolutely terrible. Cordy wasn’t in Season 4, although Charisma Carpenter was. ---
**Author:** ![N9IWP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/n9iwp/32/3154_2.png) [@N9IWP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N9IWP)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/50 "2015-12-15T12:51:52Z")
The Mayor was probably the most fun, but I have hard time calling him the best. “Answer cloudy, try again later” Brian ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/51 "2015-12-15T13:51:44Z")
As far as good storytelling goes, the Mayor was the best. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/52 "2015-12-15T14:15:54Z")
I’m going to reprise my vote for “Connor” for Angel’s most effective “big bad”. First, Darla (who’s just an awful actress on this show) spent at least four episodes making cow-noises to indicate she was in labor with Connor. Then she died for a big ol’ sucky whinefest because of Conner. Then the show turns into “The Two Men, One Vamp, One part-demon chick, one woman and Fred…AND A BABY!” sitcom with the stale at the time of the Flintstones “Honey, how does a diaper work?” and “OOo! Babby! Oochie goochie-gooogoo! Issnt oos a booful babby? Who is? YOU is! AAA IT PEED ON ME” jokes. Plus, the fucking kid squalls ALL THE TIME. Often over real dialogue. Eventually (IIRC–I’m rewatching now. I only saw the Buffyverse once in the early 2000s), Connor will get stolen by Holtz and taken to some Demon Dimension where in have a season he ages like 15 years from a squalling brat to a sullen, surely squally brat. And EVERY SHOW will revolve around his angst, Angel’s angst, Westley’s angst (for…doing something–sending the kid to the hell dimension? Whatever), and everyone else’s angst. IIRC it becomes THE WHINEY CONNOR SHOW! Guest starring Angel and a bunch of other people. (There’s a TV Trope for some character who becomes a polt eating device" Anyway, I vote Conner as Angel’s best BigBad.\* \*And boy will I be embarrassed if it turns out that my memorys wong and baby Conner’s only in a couple more episodes and whiny-teen Conner’s only in a few more. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![HowSoonIsThen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@HowSoonIsThen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HowSoonIsThen)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/53 "2015-12-16T00:21:05Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > How about (the really annoying) Darla? She was a major antagonist for the better part of two or three seasons, wasn’t she? > > You could also count…whatshername. The female lawyer. It had major villains, don’t get me wrong, just not in the same way Buffy did. Season 3 and 4 came closest to having a traditional Buffy style big bad (Holtz and Jasmine), but even then it was different. > [@Fenris](#): > > \*And boy will I be embarrassed if it turns out that my memorys wong and baby Conner’s only in a couple more episodes and whiny-teen Conner’s only in a few more. 😃 I can’t remember how many episodes Baby Connor was in, but teen Connor was in I think every season 3 episode after his first appearance, all of season 4, and a few episodes of season 5. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/54 "2015-12-16T03:59:29Z")
The Anointed One was the best vOW! Stop hitting! Seriously. I understand that having Spike live past his first appearance was a change to the season that was not planned. Was Wheadon actually planning to have the mopey, boring child of The Master be the Ace villain of season 2 before James Marsters showed up on the set? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/55 "2015-12-16T04:02:29Z")
Glory, no question, with the Mayor a close second. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/56 "2015-12-16T04:42:41Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > The Anointed One was the best vOW! Stop hitting! > > Seriously. I understand that having Spike live past his first appearance was a change to the season that was not planned. Was Wheadon actually planning to have the mopey, boring child of The Master be the Ace villain of season 2 before James Marsters showed up on the set? As I’m rewatching the series, I’m getting close to the Spike Thinks Rape Is FUN! 🙂 bit. Knowing it’s coming is weird, because Spike has been totally neutered for half of season 4, all of season 5 and half of season 6 (which is one reason I’m not counting him as a big-bad. He wasn’t a threat for about 1/2 the series). I’ve only seen it the one time, so I don’t really remember how it happens, but at the time I remember thinking “Wait. What the _fuck_??” ETA: Gavin was such a better foil for Lilah than Lindsay. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/57 "2015-12-16T11:49:58Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Anyway, I vote Conner as Angel’s best BigBad.\* Sorry. A basic principle of good villains is that I have to enjoy the time they’re on the screen. You should want a good villain to die, but you shouldn’t just want them to die so that they stop shitting up the show. Conner didn’t threaten Angel & Pals. He threatened my fun. Not a good villain. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/58 "2015-12-16T21:32:58Z")
The Master was the creepiest, so I’m voting for him. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376/59 "2015-12-16T23:32:31Z")
Good to see the Master getting some love. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-buffys-best-big-bad/740376.md?page=2)