# Who was or is "the Worst American"?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [May 30, 2005, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110 "2005-05-30T17:20:33Z")
**Posts on this page:** 17
**Page:** 13
### Author:  [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2005, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/241 "2005-06-10T18:50:56Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#):
>
> Yes, it is, but I was talking about the Roosevelt Corollary, which wasn’t US foreign policy any longer by the time of the Eisenhower administration. (US foreign policy during the Eisenhower administration, and throughout the Cold War tended to be of the “Find an anti-communist strongman and back him no matter what he does” variety.)
Ah. Thank you for the clarification, and please accept my apologies.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/242 "2005-06-10T18:55:17Z")
In other words, why are you trying to bring up an action taken in the 1950s when we’re talking about US foreign policy between 1904-1933?
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### Author:  [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2005, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/243 "2005-06-10T19:09:13Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#):
>
> In other words, why are you trying to bring up an action taken in the 1950s when we’re talking about US foreign policy between 1904-1933?
Because you weren’t talking about just the Roosevelt Corollary. You were talking about general foreign policy. Go read your posts.
> [@Captian Amazing](#):
>
> Well, while that’s witty of you, it doesn’t answer my question. What’s wrong with saying, “The US is going to intervene to provide stability and order to unstable or irresponsible governments”? It can have practical problems, as we found in Somalia and Haiti in the '90s, but it’s not some sort of bad or evil sentiment.
You’re not talking about the Roosevelt Corollary anymore. You’re specifically bringing up the general principle of the US intervening in other countries to advance US interests (if we were talking about the Roosevelt Corollary you wouldn’t be bringing up Haiti and Somalia).
Then **BrainGlutton** says that this general principle of intervention is wrong because it’s usually not to the country we’re interfering with’s benefit. And he references Iraq and countless occasions in Central America and the Caribbean. Again, we’re not talking about the Roosevelt Corollary anymore. You respond by saying:
> [@Captain Amazing](#):
>
> Why is that to “no good purpose”, though? It seems like it’s for a very good purpose…to serve US geopolitical interests and/or US corporations’ business interests.
Again, you’re talking about general foreing policy philosophy here, you’re not talking about the Roosevelt Corollary anymore. Then, in response to another one of **BrainGlutton’s** posts you say:
> [@Captain Amazing](#):
>
> Well, it can serve the interests of other countries, but I’m saying that US foreign policy needs to serve the interest of the US, because if the US government doesn’t look out for the interests of the US, who will? You seem to be suggesting that unless our foreign policy is entirely altruistic, we’re acting badly.
Let’s not try to pretend that you’re only talking about the Roosevelt Corollary anymore, ok? It’s clear you were talking about general US foreign policy with no clear limit on time frame.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/244 "2005-06-10T19:11:26Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#):
>
> Ah. Thank you for the clarification, and please accept my apologies.
Not a problem.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2005, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/245 "2005-06-10T19:37:59Z")
> [@Neurotik](#):
>
> Because you weren’t talking about just the Roosevelt Corollary. You were talking about general foreign policy. Go read your posts.
>
> You’re not talking about the Roosevelt Corollary anymore. You’re specifically bringing up the general principle of the US intervening in other countries to advance US interests (if we were talking about the Roosevelt Corollary you wouldn’t be bringing up Haiti and Somalia).
But Haiti and Somalia are perfect examples, although forward in time, of Rooseveltian ideas…that the US military should serve a peacekeeping function. That, in countries where the rule of law has broken down, or the leaders no longer subscribe to a civilized standard of behavior, the US needs to intervene to maintain order. This idea has come back in the '90s and today, in Panama, Somalia, Haiti, and Iraq, for example.
> [@](#):
>
> Then **BrainGlutton** says that this general principle of intervention is wrong because it’s usually not to the country we’re interfering with’s benefit. And he references Iraq and countless occasions in Central America and the Caribbean. Again, we’re not talking about the Roosevelt Corollary anymore. You respond by saying:
>
> Again, you’re talking about general foreing policy philosophy here, you’re not talking about the Roosevelt Corollary anymore. Then, in response to another one of **BrainGlutton’s** posts you say:
>
> Let’s not try to pretend that you’re only talking about the Roosevelt Corollary anymore, ok? It’s clear you were talking about general US foreign policy with no clear limit on time frame.
I’m not going to try to defend every action of US foreign policy. What I was trying to say to **Brainglutton** , and I admit my comments were largely out of frustration, is that not every action of the US has to be out of pure idealism or what benefits “the world as a whole”. Look, I’ll admit it, I’m a nationalist. I care about the US, and I care about the US more than I do about the rest of the world. But that doesn’t also mean I want the rest of the world to go to hell. The dictatorship in Guatemala oughtn’t have done what it did, and we oughtn’t have turned a blind eye to it. But at the same time, the fact that we supported a Guatamalan military dictatorship 50 years ago, or even a Chilean dictatorship 25 years ago doesn’t mean that we must forever beat our breasts and swear off an independent foreign policy.
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### Author:  [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2005, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/246 "2005-06-10T20:47:19Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#):
>
> Aren’t you exagerating just a little bit? The only place the “thousands upon thousands” line would apply would be Mexico, maybe, but that was mainly the stuff that Villa and Huerta were doing to each other, and not what we were doing.
I believe 30,000 were killed in El Salvador’s _La Matanza_ that took place in the 1930s.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2005, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/247 "2005-06-10T21:06:21Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#):
>
> I believe 30,000 were killed in El Salvador’s _La Matanza_ that took place in the 1930s.
Right, but we didn’t have anything to do with that.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2005, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/248 "2005-06-10T21:06:40Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#):
>
> The dictatorship in Guatemala oughtn’t have done what it did, and we oughtn’t have turned a blind eye to it. But at the same time, the fact that we supported a Guatamalan military dictatorship 50 years ago, or even a Chilean dictatorship 25 years ago doesn’t mean that we must forever beat our breasts and swear off an independent foreign policy.
No, **Captain,** but it **does** mean we should be heartily ashamed of our government’s actions in those and all similar situations, learn from them, and resolve never to do anything like that ever again.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2005, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/249 "2005-06-10T21:08:16Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#):
>
> But Haiti and Somalia are perfect examples, although forward in time, of Rooseveltian ideas…that the US military should serve a peacekeeping function. That, in countries where the rule of law has broken down, or the leaders no longer subscribe to a civilized standard of behavior, the US needs to intervene to maintain order. This idea has come back in the '90s and today, in Panama, Somalia, Haiti, and Iraq, for example.
:rolleyes: Iraq is **not** a good example.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2005, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/250 "2005-06-10T21:19:20Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> :rolleyes: Iraq is **not** a good example.
Iraq is a perfect example. You have a dictator, who commits acts of genocide against his own people, who oppresses them, and who invades his neighbors. In short, “chronic wrongdoing, or an impotence which results in a general loosening of the ties of civilized society”.
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### Author:  [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2005, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/251 "2005-06-10T21:29:34Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#):
>
> Iraq is a perfect example. You have a dictator, who commits acts of genocide against his own people, who oppresses them, and who invades his neighbors. In short, “chronic wrongdoing, or an impotence which results in a general loosening of the ties of civilized society”.
Ahem.
I know somebody close to the Potomic River that does similar things…
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### Author:  [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2005, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/252 "2005-06-10T21:31:51Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#):
>
> Iraq is a perfect example. You have a dictator, who commits acts of genocide against his own people, who oppresses them, and who invades his neighbors. In short, “chronic wrongdoing, or an impotence which results in a general loosening of the ties of civilized society”.
If that had been the reason we went to Iraq, I might have agreed. But that’s a whole different discussion thread…
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### Author:  [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2005, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/253 "2005-06-10T22:20:23Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#):
>
> Ahem.
>
> I know somebody close to the Potomic River that does similar things…
I resent the hell out of that comment. I’ve only been close to the Potomac River for three days and I’ve hardly committed one act of genocide unless you count that misunderstanding in the Afghan place and that was…
Oh, sorry… I got you…carry on.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2005, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/254 "2005-06-10T23:43:56Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#):
>
> Iraq is a perfect example. You have a dictator, who commits acts of genocide against his own people, who oppresses them, and who invades his neighbors. In short, “chronic wrongdoing, or an impotence which results in a general loosening of the ties of civilized society”.
:dubious: Iraq is not a good example of what you are describing because the U.S. invaded it for purely self-interested geopolitical reasons and the commercial interests of U.S. corporations, and any effort to “help” or “liberate” the Iraqi people was a mere pretext, just as any claimed threat Iraq posed to the U.S. was a mere pretext and a particularly flimsy one.
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### Author:  [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)
#### Post date: [June 11, 2005, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/255 "2005-06-11T02:00:59Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#):
>
> What I was trying to say to **Brainglutton** , and I admit my comments were largely out of frustration, is that not every action of the US has to be out of pure idealism or what benefits “the world as a whole”.
I agree with this. I don’t think that US foreign policy must be so altruistic as to become a large burden upon Americans. I have no problem with the US looking after its own interests, so long as they don’t conflict with the rights of other people.
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### Author:  [@Studs\_Murphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Studs_Murphy)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2005, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/256 "2005-06-12T02:57:50Z")
As an outsider, I would say for actual damage done, Kissinger.
For damage to the US’s international image, McCarthy by a country mile.
For sheer malevolence, Charles Manson deserves dishonourable mention.
Can’t say that Ed Gein did much for the image of country folks.
I don’t suppose Clay Aiken belongs here but… :o
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### Author:  [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2005, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/257 "2005-06-12T16:41:33Z")
I’d like to nominate John Marshall, chief Supreme Court Justice. Not so much for direct acts, but for what he provided the background for.
By spearheading the change of the role of the Supreme Court, from protecting the law in the constitution and balancing the other branches, to broad intertpretations that created a small cabal of backdoor politicians who were never properly elected, that pick and choose their own national law based on whim and bias. I personally blame Marshall for much of the quagmire that is today’s system of laws and Goverment that represents nobody.
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