# Who was or is "the Worst American"?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [May 30, 2005, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110 "2005-05-30T17:20:33Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 7
### Author:  [@ReuvenB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ReuvenB)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2005, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/121 "2005-05-31T21:36:01Z")
> [@user v1.05](#):
>
> obviously, Carter, history’s greatest monster
Jimmy Carter? Care to expand on this?
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### Author:  [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2005, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/122 "2005-05-31T21:52:01Z")
For all of Bull Connor’s misdeeds as the head of public safety in Birmingham, Alabama, he went on to get a statewide job in Alabama as the Public Service Commissioner and was instrumental in the development of the first 911 emergency phone call system.
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### Author:  [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2005, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/123 "2005-05-31T22:11:54Z")
Assuming you mean the 39th President, he is ineligible for consideration per the OP - living ex-president.
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2005, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/124 "2005-05-31T22:21:54Z")
Jimmy Carter?? Gods. Don’t get me wrong, I haven’t got much good to say about ole peanut boy…but to even seriously consider ranking him in a list of the worst Americans, let alone THE worst??? Well, I guess we are all operating under different definitions of the word ‘Worst American’.
In the spirit of the thread I’ll now nominate Donald Duck to go along with my previous nomination of Mickey Mouse. I find Donald subversive and offensive. I know that speech impediment he has is an affectation and he uses it to pervert American values as well as a means to pick up chicks (damn him!!). He is personally responsible for poverty and chaos both in the US and abroad, and in his role as Scrooge McDuck (I know its SUPPOSED to be another character but I’m not fooled) he is, well, RICH!! And if he’s RICH he MUST be evil (seems to be the consensus on the board here, and I’m trying to accomodate), so there. Definitely should be at the top of any realistic list of really really bad American’s.
:rolleyes:
-XT
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2005, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/125 "2005-05-31T22:46:43Z")
> [@Sampiro](#):
>
> His alternative would have been to head the Union army and take up arms against his former friends and relatives, or to resign his commission and sit out the war altogether and watch while his fellow Virginians were slaughtered under a less capable commander (nobody questions his acumen as a strategist).
All bad, possibly tragic choices. But I don’t see these as worse than what he did. Many people die in all three cases. Only in the scenario Lee chose is he actively fighting for slavery.
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### Author:  [@ReuvenB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ReuvenB)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2005, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/126 "2005-05-31T22:50:01Z")
> [@BobT](#):
>
> For all of Bull Connor’s misdeeds as the head of public safety in Birmingham, Alabama, he went on to get a statewide job in Alabama as the Public Service Commissioner and was instrumental in the development of the first 911 emergency phone call system.
Really? In all I’ve read about him, nothing has mentioned the emergency phone system. Do you have an article or somesuch? I don’t doubt you, I’d just like to read about it.
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### Author:  [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2005, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/127 "2005-05-31T23:08:05Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#):
>
> “Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort.”
He was not a U.S. Citizen; he was a citizen of the Confederate States of America.
Besides which, George Washington was most definitely a traitor against England, who had _never_ stated provisions under which the colonies could withdraw or form a new allegiance. Why is he not a “bad American”?
Perhaps Joel Grey sang it best:
> [@Wonderful Wizard of Oz](#):
>
> A man’s called a traitor, or a liberator/a rich man’s a thief or a philanthropist/is one a crusader?/or ruthless invader?/it’s all in which label is able to persist.
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### Author:  [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2005, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/128 "2005-05-31T23:09:24Z")
> [@Renob](#):
>
> Back on topic, I nominate the traitors of **Klaus Fuchs** , Julius & Ethel Rosenberg, Alger Hiss, Harry Dexter White, and all the other spies of the Cold War who turned over vital information to the Soviet Union, thus enabling it to survive and thrive and kill (either directly or indirectly) millions around the globe.
Emphasis added. Simply in the name of fighting ignorance, it must be noted that Fuchs was never ever an American. Depending on the period, he was either German or British.
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### Author:  [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2005, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/129 "2005-05-31T23:17:00Z")
How about Strom Thurmond? His 1948 Dixiecrat campaign led the way for the ugly racial “Southern Strategy” which is still in use today. Also, he was a hypocrite of the worst type. His love for segreation and fathering a daughter out of wedlock while playing on American’s fears of intergration was just disgusting.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2005, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/130 "2005-05-31T23:19:41Z")
> [@Sampiro](#):
>
> He was not a U.S. Citizen; he was a citizen of the Confederate States of America.
From the time Virginia joined the CSA (April 1861, two months after its founding) until 1865, maybe.
> [@](#):
>
> Besides which, George Washington was most definitely a traitor against England, who had _never_ stated provisions under which the colonies could withdraw or form a new allegiance. Why is he not a “bad American”?
Uh… that might make him a bad _Briton_, but it wouldn’t make him a bad American.
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### Author:  [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2005, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/131 "2005-05-31T23:21:25Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> Uh… that might make him a bad _Briton_, but it wouldn’t make him a bad American.
So you agree with Benjamin Franklin:
> [@](#):
>
> Treason is a legal term coined by the winners for hanging the losers.
Let’s agree to disagree.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2005, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/132 "2005-05-31T23:25:04Z")
> [@Sampiro](#):
>
> So you agree with Benjamin Franklin
I’m making a much simpler point, and I’m not denying Washington’s actions were treasonous toward Britain. That wouldn’t make Washington a bad American. You might say Lee was a good citizen of the CSA by the same measure.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2005, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/133 "2005-05-31T23:35:11Z")
You might say I’m just taking the topic more literally.
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### Author:  [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2005, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/134 "2005-05-31T23:35:56Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> From the time Virginia joined the CSA (April 1861, two months after its founding) until 1865, maybe.
I had to check the dates, but I was correct: Lee assumed command of the Army of Virginia on April 22, 1861, which was _after_ Virginia joined the Confederacy. He specifically would not take a command until that time so as not to be treacherous.
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### Author:  [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2005, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/135 "2005-05-31T23:38:14Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> I believe her exact quote was “This state needs education like we need a hole in the head”. Like I said, unfathomable.
I’d like to see a cite on this. Some context would probably explain this better.
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### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2005, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/136 "2005-05-31T23:53:24Z")
> [@Sampiro](#):
>
> He was not a U.S. Citizen; he was a citizen of the Confederate States of America.
Oh, come on., Sampiro, even you don’t buy that. “Ummm, I’m not a traitor… I, ah, I’m not an American anymore!” If it didn’t work for John Lindh, it doesn’t work for Bobby Lee.
You can’t excuse Lee’s treason by saying the rest of Virginia was treasonous too. Traitors don’t get a bye for being part of a mob any more than the “but the other kids are doing it too” excuse worked with your Mom. Robert E. Lee was a traitor.
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### Author:  [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2005, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/137 "2005-06-01T00:26:58Z")
> [@RickJay](#):
>
> You can’t excuse Lee’s treason by saying the rest of Virginia was treasonous too. Traitors don’t get a bye for being part of a mob any more than the “but the other kids are doing it too” excuse worked with your Mom. Robert E. Lee was a traitor.
Viewed from 21st century eyes the notion of a breakaway Republic is unthinkable, but is it unConstitutional? (As I said, that’s a whole other debate.) Remember though to those of Lee’s time how _recent_ the American Revolution, founded on the premise that when “it becomes Necessary to dissolve the Bonds which heretofore hath binded the Ties that connecteth the Midsection of the mother Country” you do so, was in living memory.
Lee’s own father had been a cavalry officer in the Revolution. Two uncles who had grown up in the house he was born in had signed the Declaration of Independence. George Washington wasn’t just a venerated name in a book to him but his father’s friend, a neighbor, and- oh yeah- Lee’s own grandfather-in-law (by marriage and adoption, but still… Lee’s [father-in-law](http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/gwpcusti.htm) was raised by the man). Secession was not an act of treason, but a _souvereign right_.
Anyway, anybody who can say that Lee was a worse person than Jefferson Davis or Joe McCarthy isn’t worth arguing with.
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### Author:  [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2005, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/138 "2005-06-01T00:46:08Z")
Andrew Jackson has been getting a lot of play in this thread because of his maltreatment of the Indians. I think it bears mentioning that his brother was tortured and killed by Indians. It doesn’t excuse what he did, but, considering also the historical context, it gives some insight into his actions. I wonder whether the Indians would have really been any better off in the long run had Jackson never lived - American society was not exactly rewarding kindness to Indians in the early 1800s.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2005, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/139 "2005-06-01T00:58:17Z")
> [@Leviosaurus](#):
>
> Which reminds me - I also nominate Robert Bork.
He’s certainly a loathsome person, but what actual damage has he ever done to the Republic?
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### Author:  [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2005, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/140 "2005-06-01T01:15:30Z")
Robert E. Lee, as I understand it, from reading various histories, did not fight in defense of slavery. It was the cause of the war, but not why _he_ made the decision to fight he did.
He is one of the people about whom it could be truly said, he fought for the _states_ rights. That the United States were states first, and united second. He had a difficult decision, to choose between his country and his home state, and he chose his home state. The difference, from his perspective, between the EU and England.
I consider him a great american, for his decision to do what he thought was right, for his behavior as a moral standard, and for his dignity at all times.
Despite him being on the wrong side of the war, and fighting _for_ an unjust cause. He was a very admirable man. He did nothing ‘Unamerican’ that I can think of. After all, if you disagree with something, you _should_ do your part to change it.
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