# Who was or is "the Worst American"?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [May 30, 2005, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110 "2005-05-30T17:20:33Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 9
### Author:  [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2005, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/161 "2005-06-02T06:35:18Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#):
>
> Col. House gets blamed for the Federal Reserve Act as well as the Council
> on Foreign Relations, both of which he had some involvement in. Conspiracy theorists think that the Federal Reserve and the CFR are part of some plan to destroy American sovereignty and establish a global government.
Bingo! Plus, his authorship of PHILIP DRU: ADMINISTRATOR in which the titular hero leads a people’s revolution against control by robber barons & then installs spiritual democratic socialism in the US, while working towards a world community based upon the same.
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### Author:  [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2005, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/162 "2005-06-02T07:00:56Z")
> [@Johanna](#):
>
> Does anyone remember “The Devil and Daniel Webster” by Stephen Vincent Benét?
> …Remember the jury that the Devil called to try the guy whose soul he claimed? The defense lawyer (Daniel Webster) insisted that the guy be tried by an all-American jury. So the Devil called… who all was there, help me remember… the most bloodthirsty, the rottenest all-stars from American history: “Teach the Pirate,” King Philip (with the tomahawk still in his cranium), Benedict Arnold… Americans all.
>
> I guess this story hasn’t been reprinted lately.
[http://www.gckschools.com/vhs/eng3/fall/romantic/danwebread.htm](http://www.gckschools.com/vhs/eng3/fall/romantic/danwebread.htm)
> [@Stephen Vincent Benet](#):
>
> For there was Walter Butler, the Loyalist, who spread fire and horror through the Mohawk Valley in the times of the Revolution; and there was Simon Girty, the renegade, who saw white men burned at the stake and whooped with the Indians to see them burn. His eyes were green, like a catamount’s, and the stains on his hunting shirt did not come from the blood of the deer. King Philip was there, wild and proud as he had been in life, with the great gash in his head that gave him his death wound, and cruel Governor Dale, who broke men on the wheel. There was Morton of Merry Mount, who so vexed the Plymouth Colony, with his flushed, loose, handsome face and his hate of the godly. There was Teach, the bloody pirate, with his black beard curling on his breast. The Reverend John Smeet, with his strangler’s hands and his Geneva gown, walked as daintily as he had to the gallows. The red print of the rope was still around his neck, but he carried a perfumed handkerchief in one hand. One and all, they came into the room with the fires of hell still upon them, and the stranger named their names and their deeds as they came, till the tale of twelve was told. Yet the stranger had told the truth — they had all played a part in America.
None of them seem as bad as Nixon 😃
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2005, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/163 "2005-06-02T13:54:07Z")
Here’s the text, if anyone is curious:
[http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext04/8phlp10h.htm](http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext04/8phlp10h.htm)
I still don’t know why helping to create the Federal Reserve, the CFR, and writing a utopian socialist book makes him “the worst American”, but…
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### Author:  [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2005, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/164 "2005-06-02T17:23:32Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#):
>
> Here’s the text, if anyone is curious:
>
> [http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext04/8phlp10h.htm](http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext04/8phlp10h.htm)
>
> I still don’t know why helping to create the Federal Reserve, the CFR, and writing a utopian socialist book makes him “the worst American”, but…
Well, I’ll admit that I’m being a wee bit facetious- I’m sure at least House meant well. And I’m no longer a big anti-Fed, anti-CFR Righty. However, I do believe House was a point man in the “New World Order” drive towards the mix of muddled “new-agey” spirituality, internationalism, & “soft” socialism into which the US & the Western world has drifted/been manipulated for the past century.
Thanks for finding that text. Good luck to anyone who actually tries to read it. I did several times while in college but I had the inner fire of Birchism driving me onward. _G_
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### Author:  [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2005, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/165 "2005-06-02T19:29:15Z")
Throwing this out there because he needs to be in this thread.
Michael Jackson
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### Author:  [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2005, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/166 "2005-06-02T19:36:12Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#):
>
> I’m torn. There are some many different criteria to choose from.
>
> Teddy Roosevelt is in the running for me–Mr. Jingo himself.
Oh, good Lord.
Let’s see: Teddy Roosevelt initiated one colonial war, invading Panama to free it from the Colombians and to allow us to build the Canal.
By comparison, in his first term alone, Woodrow Wilson ordered the invasions of Haiti, the Dominican Republican, and Nicaragua.
Teddy Roosevelt orchestrated the peace between Russia and Japan in their war, and earned the Nobel Peace Prize for his work.
By comparison, Woodrow Wilson involved the United States in the most foolish damned war of the 20th Century, consigning hundreds of thousands of Americans to their death for the purpose of assisting England and France in the devestation of Germany. In order to acheive his vision for a ‘world safe for democracy’- i.e., setting up a multitude of independent European states the majority of which would fall into dictatorships or monarchies within twenty years- Wilson was willing to allow France and Germany to put huge reparations on the back of Germany which would lead to the rise of Hitler and World War II.
Roosevelt was the first President to have an African-American spend the night as a guest at the White House.
Wilson, an unrepentant Virginian, helped set the civil rights cause back at least twenty years.
Roosevelt busted trusts and instituted the “Square Deal” for the American people; he created the FDA and set aside thousands of acres of land for public parks. As Commissioner of Police for New York, he helped establish one of the first truly modern police departments in the country, if not the world.
Of course, if someone lists Reagan and Rove as their suggestions for “Worst American”, one kind of has to expect this. :rolleyes:
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### Author:  [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2005, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/167 "2005-06-02T19:45:23Z")
How nice.
It’s all a matter of opinion, isn’t it?
So much for walking softly–do you have a big stick with you?
:dubious:
Your eyes might freeze that way, if you hold the position long enough.
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### Author:  [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2005, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/168 "2005-06-02T19:51:05Z")
**Speak** softly.
Or go read a book.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2005, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/169 "2005-06-02T19:59:03Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#):
>
> How nice.
>
> It’s all a matter of opinion, isn’t it?
Yeah, but opinions need to be backed up with facts, so what’s your reason for naming TR the worst American?
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### Author:  [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2005, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/170 "2005-06-02T20:03:23Z")
Oh honestly. Yes, I made a mistake on the Teddy quote. So sad.
Guess that make unworthy of GD or something.
Listen, **John** -I don’t want to waste time being snarky with you. I have nothing anti-Woodrow Wilson–and nothing pro-Wilson, either. I do not see how my mentioning of TR even involves WW in the least.
Name me a President that didn’t have his share of wrong decisions–just a general question; I am no Wilson apologist.
What I dislike about Teddy is his whole macho crappola–the cowboy nonsense that we see repeated today by Bush who has stated that one of his role models is…Teddy Roosevelt!
Glad to see that you hold him dear, too. If you hold TR so high in esteem-go vote for him in the Best American thread. Leave me out of it.
BTW-I DO like TR for the Teddy bear–a useful legacy for the world.
I had completely forgotten about his initiation of the NPS etc. Whatever. Am I to retract my statement based on your greater knowledge and wisdom here? I don’t see the point. Have you gone thru the list and approved or disapproved of other poster’s choices?
I have the distinct feeling that you are actually arguing or patronizing someone else and I am in the way. I hope you figure it out soon–I have no patience today and even less desire for a donnybrook. This thread is a list of people’s opinions as to the worst American. Lord knows the field is full of contenders of all stripes.
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### Author:  [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2005, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/171 "2005-06-02T20:11:10Z")
Posted before I was done.
I don’t appreciate this one bit:
> [@](#):
>
> Of course, if someone lists Reagan and Rove as their suggestions for “Worst American”, one kind of has to expect this
You know better than that–I see you’re an admin on this bb. Thanks for the character swipe, in GD no less. I will resist going back to your posts to see if any of them agree with my worldview. It seems to me to be childish to “debate” in this way.
on preview:
**Captain** --I realize that in GD one should post data to support premises. I have no cite for such a thread–the thread is an opinion poll, and as such, should probably be in IMHO or even MPSIMS. I gave support (such as it is) in my last post.
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2005, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/172 "2005-06-02T20:19:11Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#):
>
> What I dislike about Teddy is his whole macho crappola–the cowboy nonsense that we see repeated today by Bush who has stated that one of his role models is…Teddy Roosevelt!
And…er…this makes TR the WORST American? Or even on a top 10 list?? Really? I mean, we’ve had American’s in the clan, American’s who were mass murderers, American’s who fought tooth and nail to prevent things like Civil Rights…and you really, truely think that being ‘macho’ and ‘cowbow nonsense’ puts someone on the top of the list?
You are right though…it is simply an opinion poll and you are free to make your choice in defiance of logic, as others have done. Its…instructive…too see who folks pick as ‘the worst American’.
-XT
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2005, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/173 "2005-06-02T20:30:29Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#):
>
> **Captain** --I realize that in GD one should post data to support premises. I have no cite for such a thread–the thread is an opinion poll, and as such, should probably be in IMHO or even MPSIMS. I gave support (such as it is) in my last post.
Well, sure, it’s an opinion poll, but, like you said, people have reasons for their opinions, and sometimes knowing why somebody picked X as “worst American” or “best American” gives you more information than just knowing that they did.
You’re right that TR did emphasize a “macho” image, and was a shameless self-promoter, and I might even say that he’s overrated (just as Taft, I think, usually is underrated), but personally, I’d disagree with you that TR is the “worst” American, or even that emphasizing a macho image is bad in itself.
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### Author:  [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2005, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/174 "2005-06-02T20:35:48Z")
**xtisme** --No, that’s not the only reason.
I find it ironic that **John** should “dis” Wilson so badly when TR was impatient with Wilson’s foot dragging re: getting us in the War to End All Wars. Roosevelt wanted to go to war earlier and more eagerly than Wilson did.
He was also somewhat short sighted in that his Bull Moose party split the Reps and so Wilson won the election. But he did break the miner’s strike–a good thing in the long run(if I recall correctly), and he was anti-monopoly (a good thing in my eyes).
Does it all add up to the Worst American? No.
But IMO he doesn’t make the list for Best American either.
There isn’t one set of criteria for Worst, so alot of entries have been “bad people who I don’t like or approve of” by posters.
For example, I cannot see Lee as the Worst American–but I am not denigrating that poster’s choice.
I ripped up at **John** because he came on very strongly and snarkily about Woodrow Wilson–who is and was irrelevant to my posts. The parting shot about my low opinion of Rove and Reagan was enough for me.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2005, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/175 "2005-06-02T20:49:28Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#):
>
> I had completely forgotten about his initiation of the NPS etc. Whatever. Am I to retract my statement based on your greater knowledge and wisdom here?
It’d be a good start. Being able to admit you were wrong is generally held to be a mature and admirable quality.
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2005, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/176 "2005-06-02T20:50:27Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#):
>
> But IMO he doesn’t make the list for Best American either.
I agree. Though I think he was a fairly decent president he doesn’t rate at the top of my own list…and thats just for presidents. I don’t see many presidents on the list of ‘best’ American’s…they are politicians after all. 😛 But then, I don’t see many presidents being on the ‘worst’ list either (perhaps a few of the presidents just prior to the civil war would qualify…and I suppose a case could be made for Nixon for the harm he did). I can think of a few Senators and Congresscritters though…
> [@eleanorigby](#):
>
> There isn’t one set of criteria for Worst, so alot of entries have been “bad people who I don’t like or approve of” by posters.
Thats why I didn’t attempt to seriously answer this question…what exactly is the ‘best’ or ‘worst’? Obviously many posters in this thread equate ‘worst’ with ‘guys I don’t agree with politically or just don’t like because of X’.
-XT
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### Author:  [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2005, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/177 "2005-06-02T21:12:23Z")
**xtisme** --Well, that is what I did, to some extent with TR.
I heartily nominate Rove and Reagan, for so many reasons. I will not go into them because someone already has (Reagan) and because I would think it would be enough for me to say that I consider Rove to be a modern day Iago of sorts.
**Miller** --that is what I did do. Not in a direct statement, but by implication and explication.
As stated, I took the “Worst” to mean “people that I dislike or disapprove of for various reasons”. I am not the only poster to do so in this thread.
Not the first, won’t be the last.
I dislike the condescension present in your post. I have gone thru this already. Please do not admonish me with calls for “mature and admirable qualities”. Another admirable quality is tolerance or forebearance.
But you have me dead to rights-in word, if not in deed. Nowhere did I state, “I was wrong to put TR in the running for the Worst American ever, with nothing more than a slighting reference to his foreign policy that wasn’t enough for many. To do so offended some and that is wrong and really bad. I am sorry and will never do it again.”
I am not sure why I am being so contentious here, but I am (to borrow a phrase) “full of Grrr” for the cavalier treatment handed my posts vs other posts here and elsewhere(see Worst Female etc) in GD. It sticks in my craw to apologize for a premise that was 1. misunderstood or misdirected by and admin and 2. that others have done without mishap.
Thank you, **xtisme** and **Captain Amazing** for your attempts to elucidate my opinion and your encouragement to me to be more precise and forthcoming in my posts. It is much appreciated.
Snide comments about reading books (really, where did that come from?) etc I won’t bother with.
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### Author:  [@Try\_As\_I\_Might](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try_As_I_Might)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2005, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/178 "2005-06-02T21:18:46Z")
Obviously the answer is Boss Hog.
On a more serious note, it is very difficult to assign definitions to “worst American.” For me, it may well be someone like the BTK killer, Albert Fish, Dahmer, Bundy, et cetera, but only because I look at the direct evil they committed. Others would say they may have had mental health issues and therefore are exempt. Results, for me, however, speak volumes. Those are people who simply could not live within a society.
I try to shy away from political figures on this discussion because it that can be very difficult. If i had to chose a political figure, I would say Andrew Jackson, not only because of the terrible acts he committed towards the native americans, but also because, in doing so, he refused to respect the checks and balances of our government. Very dangerous stuff there. However, FDR also outright threatened the Supreme Court as well (No, I’m not saying FDR’s the worst American).
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2005, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/179 "2005-06-02T21:36:33Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#):
>
> **Miller** --that is what I did do. Not in a direct statement, but by implication and explication.
If you admit you were wrong, why are you getting all defensive?
> [@](#):
>
> As stated, I took the “Worst” to mean “people that I dislike or disapprove of for various reasons”. I am not the only poster to do so in this thread.
> Not the first, won’t be the last.
I’d disagree there. I think a lot of posters have very skewed ideas about how much damage certain public figures actually caused, but without doing a detailed review (and excluding the obvious tongue-in-cheek suggestions), you would seem to be the first poster in this thread to read the word “worst” as meaning anything other than “worst.” I mean, bas as he is, I don’t think Dick Cheney is the worst American by a long stretch, but I assume that those posters who mentioned his name, do.
> [@](#):
>
> I dislike the condescension present in your post. I have gone thru this already. Please do not admonish me with calls for “mature and admirable qualities”. Another admirable quality is tolerance or forebearance.
Those would be two admirable qualities. And it’s spelled “through,” not “thru.”
> [@](#):
>
> But you have me dead to rights-in word, if not in deed. Nowhere did I state, “I was wrong to put TR in the running for the Worst American ever, with nothing more than a slighting reference to his foreign policy that wasn’t enough for many. To do so offended some and that is wrong and really bad. I am sorry and will never do it again.”
>
> I am not sure why I am being so contentious here, but I am (to borrow a phrase) “full of Grrr” for the cavalier treatment handed my posts vs other posts here and elsewhere(see Worst Female etc) in GD. It sticks in my craw to apologize for a premise that was 1. misunderstood or misdirected by and admin and 2. that others have done without mishap.
I don’t much care about your opinion of Teddy Roosevelt one way or the other. I am somewhat peeved by your tone of outrage that someone would dare to question your opinion. This is Great Debates. The whole purpose of the forum is questioning other people’s opinions. It’s kinda implicit in the “Debates” part of the forum title.
I don’t know why **John Corrado** singled out your post instead of someone else’s. Maybe he just really likes Teddy Roosevelt. Who cares? If you haven’t noticed, a lot of people have taken exception to other figures that have been named. You’re hardly unique in terms of getting called on sub-standard nominations to this thread.
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### Author:  [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2005, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-or-is-the-worst-american/306110/180 "2005-06-02T21:50:45Z")
**eleanorigby** , I do see your point about Teddy Roosevelt-his actions in Panama were deplorable, not to mention his support for the Spanish-American War, and the Roosevelt Corollary to the Monroe Doctrine.
That aside, he was also a huge conservationist (and would probably be derided as an environmentalist by modern Republicans today), he was anti-trust, rooted out corruption and did a lot of good. I think Roosevelt was a very complex man, much like Robert E. Lee. I think they were BOTH far too complicated to judge as the “best” or the “worst.”
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