# Who was the bad guy in the band? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 5, 2020, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-bad-guy-in-the-band/855123 "2020-06-05T22:18:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-bad-guy-in-the-band/855123/81 "2020-06-10T19:08:18Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Wellllll…let’s just say there are multiple potential [sources of friction in the Talking Heads](https://www.salon.com/test2/2003/12/03/heads_2/) ;). To quote: _Talking Heads fans generally don’t take kindly to dumping on Weymouth, but she really is the Lady Macbeth of rock._ > > That shouldn’t let Byrne off the hook of course, as he seems to have been genuinely odd and frustratingly difficult. But apparently he wasn’t the only issue. He also has Asperger’s Syndrome, which might account for some of the oddness. ---
**Author:** ![Reginald\_Knutsen\_the\_3rd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85e7bf/32.png) [@Reginald\_Knutsen\_the\_3rd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reginald_Knutsen_the_3rd)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-bad-guy-in-the-band/855123/82 "2020-06-10T19:36:40Z")
This is tough framing. The default template for musician personality is arrogant and douchey propped up by an undercurrent of insecurity. As such, it might be easier to identify who the good guy is in a band rather than the bad guy. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-bad-guy-in-the-band/855123/83 "2020-06-10T19:42:24Z")
> [@Guest-starring\_Id](#): > > Whoever that band was that did that song that went “So put your hand in the hand of the man who spilled the waters.” ok that one was just a blind stab. One of the members of that band was in proto-Rush before they became Rush. And it’s “stilled” the waters, not spilled them. He was, after all, the Man from Galilee. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-bad-guy-in-the-band/855123/84 "2020-06-10T19:45:14Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Sure. Just ask The Police. > Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Or Creed. (Remember them? 😛 ) During their New Wave-y phase in the 1980s, Rush were asked why they didn’t hire a keyboard player, at least for their tours so they wouldn’t have to use backing tapes, and Neil Peart said that prior to Rush, he had played in quartets, and had seen musicians pair off, if you will, and they didn’t want that. ---
**Author:** ![GESancMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gesancman/32/2923_2.png) [@GESancMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GESancMan)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-bad-guy-in-the-band/855123/85 "2020-06-10T20:11:10Z")
I thought of a five-piece with no bad guys: Marillion. They had a good amount of friction in their early days, going through a few drummers. After some success, original vocalist Fish came down with a bad case of Lead Singer Disease. It culminated in him demanding that all money earned by the band be split 50/50 - 50% for him, 50% for the other four members. Fish left, and Steve Hogarth joined. Marillion has had the same line-up for 31 years and 13 studio albums, and by all accounts the five members get along famously. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-bad-guy-in-the-band/855123/86 "2020-06-10T20:14:02Z")
[quote=“LLCoolL, post:64, topic:855123”] Check out Hodgson’s first solo album “In the Eye of the Storm”. It’s really good. The song “Only Because of You” is amazing: [/QUOTE] Yeah, I have that Album, and it’s good. ‘Brother Where You Bound’ is also pretty good. But I think both of them have material that was written while they were in Supertramp, much like George Harrison’s ‘All Things Must Pass’ included material he wrote for the Beatles, but which never made it onto a Beatles album. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-bad-guy-in-the-band/855123/87 "2020-06-10T20:17:25Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > One of the members of that band was in proto-Rush before they became Rush. > > And it’s “stilled” the waters, not spilled them. He was, after all, the Man from Galilee. Which band? Ocean? I didn’t see anyone associated with Rush in their lineup… ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-bad-guy-in-the-band/855123/88 "2020-06-10T21:15:31Z")
> [@GESancMan](#): > > I thought of a five-piece with no bad guys: Marillion. > > They had a good amount of friction in their early days, going through a few drummers. After some success, original vocalist Fish came down with a bad case of Lead Singer Disease. It culminated in him demanding that all money earned by the band be split 50/50 - 50% for him, 50% for the other four members. > > Fish left, and Steve Hogarth joined. Marillion has had the same line-up for 31 years and 13 studio albums, and by all accounts the five members get along famously. Yeah but they sucked after Fish. Fish’s bigger problem was probably the alcoholism. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-bad-guy-in-the-band/855123/89 "2020-06-11T00:22:37Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Not to defend Waters in general but my understanding (from the _Saucerful of Secrets_ band bio) was that Waters wanted to make The Final Cut as a solo album but CBS Records basically forced him to label it as a Pink Floyd album because they wanted the easier sales. Dude’s still a jackass though for a boatload of other reasons. From what I’ve read, much the same thing happened to Tony Iommi after they fired Ozzy from Black Sabbath. Iommi basically wanted to form a new band with a new name, but the record company insisted that it be called Black Sabbath. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Which band? Ocean? I didn’t see anyone associated with Rush in their lineup… The bass player, [Jeff Jones](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Jones_(musician)). He was in some precursor of Rush, in 1968, along with Lifeson and Rutsey. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-bad-guy-in-the-band/855123/90 "2020-06-11T00:33:02Z")
I don’t know that Al Kooper was exactly a “bad guy.” But when you’re the founder of Blood, Sweat, and Tears, and after one album the other members - _who you recruited_ - suggest you leave the group, the creative differences are running pretty deep. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-bad-guy-in-the-band/855123/91 "2020-06-11T01:08:28Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > From what I’ve read, much the same thing happened to Tony Iommi after they fired Ozzy from Black Sabbath. Iommi basically wanted to form a new band with a new name, but the record company insisted that it be called Black Sabbath. > > The bass player, [Jeff Jones](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Jones_(musician)). He was in some precursor of Rush, in 1968, along with Lifeson and Rutsey. Ah. Thanks. My Rush history ends with Rutsey. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-bad-guy-in-the-band/855123/92 "2020-06-11T01:31:55Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > From what I’ve read, much the same thing happened to Tony Iommi after they fired Ozzy from Black Sabbath. Iommi basically wanted to form a new band with a new name, but the record company insisted that it be called Black Sabbath. The same with the Jethro Tull album A. It was supposed to be an Ian Anderson solo album but the record company insisted that it be a Jethro Tull album. Jon Evan and David Palmer were axed because of it. ---
**Author:** ![bmoak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@bmoak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoak)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-bad-guy-in-the-band/855123/93 "2020-06-11T02:14:54Z")
> [@Linty\_Fresh](#): > > I’d say John Fogerty would qualify. He was a bully who knew how to hold a grudge, and I actually resent the fact that **CCR** never got back together at the end of the 80s when all the other classic rock bands seemed to be getting their second spring. I would have loved to have been able to see them perform. And his solo career can be summed up in two parts: “Centerfield” and “Shit.” Even he had been getting along with with bandmates, there was no way in hell John would’ve agreed to a CCR revival at that time. Any bad feelings John had towards Tom, Doug and Cosmo paled compared to the white-hot rage he felt towards Fantasy Records owner Saul Zaentz. In a business famous for record companies ripping off artists, CCR’s contract with Fantasy was egregiously bad. When Creedence broke up and couldn’t meet their contractual obligations, they had to give up all rights to their songs in perpetuity to get out of the contract. This meant that Fogerty would have to pay Zaentz royalties to play his own songs, something that he absolutely refused to do for a very long time. CCR eventually got their rights back when Fantasy Records was sold to another record company in around 2005. Fogerty famously wrote two songs about Zaentz for the Centerfield album: Mr. Greed and Vanz Can’t Danz, which was originally titled Zanz Can’t Danz until Zaentz hit him with a defamation lawsuit. Zaentz then famously sued John for plagiarizing his own work in a lawsuit claiming that Old Man Down the Road was a ripoff of Run Through the Jungle. Saul Zaentz used his CCR profits to get into the movie business and buy the movie and media rights for Tolkien’s works and is one of the reasons why the Hobbit Trilogy movies were sucky. ---
**Author:** ![bmoak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@bmoak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoak)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-bad-guy-in-the-band/855123/94 "2020-06-11T02:35:01Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Robbie Robertson was notorious for being arrogant and refusing to credit other members of the band for songs they collaborated on. He seemed to see The Band as more, “Robbie Robertson and some side players.” The Band’s split of songwriting credits and royalties wasn’t really different from industry standards for that era, and the idea of the Band as a group of equal collaborators was pretty much over after they came out of their semi-isolation in the Catskills. After that, Robbie was pretty much carrying the load for both songwriting and for TCB for band matters, as Rick, Richard, and Levon were off partying hard and Garth was in his own little world. Their manager, Albert Grossman, also played a part of this. He was famously Dab Dylan’s manager, ands invested in pushing the idea of Robbie as a genius songwriter a la Dylan. In a book about The Band not written by either Robbie or Levon (Barney Hoskyn’s long out of print Across The Great Divide: The Band and America), several people who knew Robbie back in the day say he was a pretty nice guy until he started hanging out with Bob and Albert and then started cultivating an arrogant and aloof personality. Part of the issue is that pretty much everyone loved Levon and Robbie normally can’t come across as more of an arrogant douche if he tried. ---
**Author:** ![bmoak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@bmoak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoak)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-bad-guy-in-the-band/855123/95 "2020-06-11T02:45:58Z")
> [@blondebear](#): > > Blackmore has a well established reputation for being hard to work with, moody and generally being a dick. He made a lot of selfish decisions that negatively affected his band mates over the years. In the “Hell Or High Water” video of a Deep Purple show in Birmingham, the tension and bad vibes are on full display. > > Now I don’t want to be an apologist for Ritchie, but I’ve always seen him as a a taciturn, massively stubborn introvert (it that’s a thing) with a \*very \*strong sense of what he wants out of himself and his music…and if he gets pissed off, stay out of his way. Those character traits don’t lend themselves to being in a rock band where communication and harmonious personal interaction is needed. > > Having said that, my feelings about the dour man in black changed almost 180 degrees when I saw a Blackmore’s Night show in 2005. There was Ritchie, alongside his beautiful partner, actually smiling! And not only that, he was handing out beers to the people in the front row! He seemed to be enjoying the show, a marked change from the Purple shows I had seen. Obviously Candice had cast some sort of magical spell over him. LOL. The first reaction of everyone who followed Blackmore in Deep Purple and Rainbow upon seeing a Blackmore’s Night video is: Holy sh\*t, Ritchie’s SMILING! I think that part of it is that he’s now playing music he likes and enjoys. After Dio left, Ritchie took Rainbow in a rock-radio friendly direction, probably because that was what was needed to keep the band successful and commercially viable, but I don’t think his heart was in doing songs like Stone Cold and Street of Dreams. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-bad-guy-in-the-band/855123/96 "2020-06-11T02:49:25Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Ah. Thanks. My Rush history ends with Rutsey. Of course, in 1968, Alex and Geddy would have been about 15 years old. As teenage boys are wont to do, they’d get into arguments and get mad at each other, and I’ve read that, more than once, they got mad at each other and Alex would kick Geddy out of the band, or Geddy would quit, and somebody else would take Geddy’s place in the band. But they always made up quickly, and Geddy would be back in. Fortunately for rock history, they appear to have gotten that kind of thing out of their systems pretty quickly. They recorded the first album when they were 18-19 years old, and never looked back. Jeff Jones was only in the band long enough to perform with them one time. The second performance conflicted with a party he wanted to go to, so he was out and Geddy was back in. Though it is kind of ironic that Jones ended up “famous” before Alex and Geddy. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-bad-guy-in-the-band/855123/97 "2020-06-11T03:00:08Z")
MTV played the video for “Vanz Kant Danz” very briefly, until they got a cease & desist order. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/wjpAYfCFmJ4/hqdefault.jpg "John Fogerty - Vanz Kant Danz") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjpAYfCFmJ4) ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-bad-guy-in-the-band/855123/98 "2020-06-11T03:58:03Z")
Did anyone mention Morrissey? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-bad-guy-in-the-band/855123/99 "2020-06-11T10:02:00Z")
> [@Southern\_Yankee](#): > > And why? Over my 53 years I have heard many references to the guy was the “cancer” in the bands they were in, but often without much explanation. Some examples are Roger Waters and David Crosby. What is the story there? Who else? Well, I’d say that Rogers Waters wasn’t the cancer in the band. The band was dead without him in 1972. Would you still be talking about that band with one great album, Dark side, without him? Two of the rest of the band descended into drugs and the other one, who can write a few decent solos, but barely a lyric with a meaning, would have churned out maybe one album of the quality of a David Gilmour solo album and disappeared. So the fact he was pissed off with the rest hanging off his coat tails for 10 more years, the most critically successful ones, might be justified. I think Waters should have left Floyd after Dark side and created another band with another name without the rich coked out prima donnas wanting all the credit and none of the work. I’m pretty sure we’d have all the classic 73-79 albums from them. Original Floyd would be touring Dark side still. So can you call them cancer when they were the beating heart? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-bad-guy-in-the-band/855123/100 "2020-06-11T21:25:25Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Keith Moon had no understanding of how to play the drums. He had no rhythm, he couldn’t keep time to save his life, he didn’t know what the various parts of his kit were or how to use them properly, he never practiced or had any kind of education, and his technique pretty much consisted of banging on everything in his field of vision irrespective of whether or not it fit the music he was supposed to be accompanying. > > He was one of the greatest drummers to ever live in _spite_ of all that, because he managed to wind up in a band so anarchic and insane that his lack of skill was made up for. Dude, that makes absolutely no sense at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-bad-guy-in-the-band/855123.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-bad-guy-in-the-band/855123.md?page=6)