# Who was the biggest bitch (male or female) in Hollywood history? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 26, 2004, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-biggest-bitch-male-or-female-in-hollywood-history/226108 "2004-01-26T04:43:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-biggest-bitch-male-or-female-in-hollywood-history/226108/61 "2004-01-27T22:31:42Z")
What is IRDC? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Punkyova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@The\_Punkyova](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Punkyova)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2004, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-biggest-bitch-male-or-female-in-hollywood-history/226108/62 "2004-01-28T05:06:31Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > _Hello, I Must be Going_, by Charlotte Chandler > _Groucho_, by Stefan Kanfer > _Monkey Business_, by Simon Louvish > _My Life with Groucho_, by Arthur Marx > _The Secret Word Is Groucho_, by Sally Presley-Rippengale & John E. Ballow > _Raised Eyebrows_, by Steve Stoliac > > The divorce from wife Eden (who, like his first wife Ruth, he pushed into alcoholism with his constant verbal abuse), the last years when Erin Fleming took over his life, the estrangement with son Arthur and daughter Melinda, the increasing senility, paranoia, and loss of impulse control, the court case over who was to be his conservator, the allegations of physical and psychological abuse toward and from Erin. Yes, Erin managed to push him into that Carnegie Hall concert. So what was one day out of decades? His last years were a sad, sorry mess. Well, yeah, but… Everything you say is true, but I note that it was his immediate family that bore the brunt of it. None of his children ever alleged physical abuse, by the way. Groucho was fundamentally insecure, and lashed out verbally at everyone close to him, especially his wives and his kids. He bickered constantly with Chico, but genuinely loved Harpo and Gummo. He had a more distant relationship with Zeppo, who was considerably younger. Most of the nasty stuff happened when he was elderly. Erin is a controversial figure. She was mentally ill, and they seem to have had a relationship that veered from rather sweet to deeply dysfunctional and ugly. She at least precipitated a lot of unpleasant stuff he didn’t really need. But Groucho’s colleagues and co-workers spoke well of him. He was the one Marx Brother who showed up on time, with his lines memorized. He went to the pre-production meetings, and spent time with the writers. He had sincere long-lasting friendships with many writers and songwriters in Hollywood. (Harry Ruby comes to mind. Groucho insisted on using Harry’s songs in his movies later on, because he know Harry needed the money.) So Groucho wasn’t a happy, sunny man, but he wasn’t a total bitch, as described in the OP. nitpicks - Steve Stoliar, not Stoliac. I also think that Hector Arce’s bio is much more reliable than Simon Louvich’s. And everyone should read Harpo Speaks. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2004, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-biggest-bitch-male-or-female-in-hollywood-history/226108/63 "2004-01-28T07:06:06Z")
Since the OP didn’t limit it to actors/actresses, I would like to nominate **gossip columnist Hedda Hopper** , with a supporting nomination for her henchwoman, **Louella Parsons**. Between the two of them, they spent years destroying careers, forcing studios to dumb-down films, and chasing actors they didn’t like out of the industry or even out of the country. Even in the midst of their power, they were known as “Hollywood’s Wicked Witches” and “The Wicked Witches of the West”. I have to think that since their power lasted for years, and they used it to force talented people out of the film industry, and damage the type of films that were made; this counts as _worse_ than others who just treated their fellow actors or family members rudely & abominally. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2004, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-biggest-bitch-male-or-female-in-hollywood-history/226108/64 "2004-01-28T08:07:23Z")
> [@Gamaliel](#): > > Ellison, however, is just as much of an ass, and in this particular case couldn’t quite understand why they needed to make some changes in an unfilmable script. Ellison may be an ass, but he has talent, and he has the ability to see The Truth, which gives him a lot of leeway in my book. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2004, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-biggest-bitch-male-or-female-in-hollywood-history/226108/65 "2004-01-28T08:29:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Mia Farrow and Woody Allen were never married. Nor did Mia Farrow and Woody Allen ever live together. True, though they were together for about 10 years and had 3 kids (two adopted). > [@](#): > > Sun-Yi Previn is the adopted daughter of Mia Farrow and conductor Andre Previn. Not Woody Allen. And she was an adult, not a girl, when she began dating Woody. You’re right, I did screw some things up. The pictures Farrow found have always been described as of a teenaged Soon-Yi. So even if she was legally an adult (over 18), she was still about 40 years younger than Woody, who was dating her mother. I don’t get into this stuff normally, but that’s pretty bad in my book anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2004, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-biggest-bitch-male-or-female-in-hollywood-history/226108/66 "2004-01-28T13:36:44Z")
> [@Gamaliel](#): > > No question about Shatner being an ass, to the point of sabatoging his fellow actors on screen. My favorite Shatner story is from a memo in a Roddenberry bio from Bob Justman complaining about how Shatner would steal all his hairpieces. > > Ellison, however, is just as much of an ass, and in this particular case couldn’t quite understand why they needed to make some changes in an unfilmable script. I feel obliged to quote SF critic Dave Langford’s comment from [here](http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/SF-Archives/Ansible/a111.html): > [@](#): > > Harlan Ellison’s hot new publication is his 1960s _Star Trek_ script _The City on the Edge of Forever_, with a `blistering' 25,000-word introduction describing how the version screened in 1967 was `eviscerated’ in such a `fatally inept’ fashion that it won a Hugo award. Tragically, Ellison failed to publish this fearless denunciation in the fleeting interval, from 1967 to 1991, when its prime target Gene Roddenberry was alive to reply. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2004, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-biggest-bitch-male-or-female-in-hollywood-history/226108/67 "2004-01-28T20:16:30Z")
> [@The Punkyova](#): > > So Groucho wasn’t a happy, sunny man, but he wasn’t a total bitch, as described in the OP. > > nitpicks - Steve Stoliar, not Stoliac. I also think that Hector Arce’s bio is much more reliable than Simon Louvich’s. And everyone should read Harpo Speaks. I do agree with what you say, but I emphasize that my original post here made it clear that I was just referring to his later life, not his professional career. He was always a proper professional. And the brothers were one of the closest families in show business, even if they had their well-known disputes. However, the differences in the brothers’ personalities in real life are fascinating. Chico was an extremely charming and gregarious man, a seducer in every sense of the word. Zeppo had loads of personality, the best business head, and you can find any number of references claiming that he was the funniest offstage. Harpo is uniformly acclaimed as one of the nicest human beings ever to walk the earth. But Groucho is equally universally said to have lived up to his nickname. He was not a bitch, but he was an abrasive loner, a private man at home, close only to a tiny set of friends, and about as unlike his brothers as could possibly be. In the nature v. nurture dispute, they got their genes from a blender. Sorry about the typo on Stoliar. You should have seen the first six versions. 🙂 And Arce’s (pronounced Are-See’s, for those who might be wondering) bio just has less on Groucho’s later life than the others I mentioned. Of course, anyone who calls himself Exapno Mapcase has no problem recommending _Harpo Speaks_. ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2004, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-biggest-bitch-male-or-female-in-hollywood-history/226108/68 "2004-01-28T22:17:13Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > What is IRDC? “I didn’t remember correctly.” Originally I had written “IIRC” when I wrote about Liz’s Todd-AO demands, so I meant “nah, it’s not that she wasn’t very persuasive, but that I didn’t remember correctly.” Of course in retrospect, even with the smiley, it looks like I invented some other form of film stock as a counter-argument, so I understand your confusion. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2004, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-biggest-bitch-male-or-female-in-hollywood-history/226108/69 "2004-01-28T23:50:33Z")
Carl Switzer, better known as “Alfalfa” in _Our Gang/Little Rascals_ was supposed to be a viscious little spoiled brat. He’d bully his co-stars, throw tantrums on set and on one occassion, peed on the set lights, stinking up the studio. He later was shot and killed in a dispute over fifty dollars. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2004, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-biggest-bitch-male-or-female-in-hollywood-history/226108/70 "2004-01-29T01:31:04Z")
I remember watching a PBS special on the Marx brothers where it was said that Groucho got his nickname because he was grouchy much of the time, and that the grouchiness was a result of the almost constant pain he was in (something about his foot or his spine, and I **really** wish I remembered what the source of pain was). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Punkyova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@The\_Punkyova](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Punkyova)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2004, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-biggest-bitch-male-or-female-in-hollywood-history/226108/71 "2004-01-29T02:49:10Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > I do agree with what you say, but I emphasize that my original post here made it clear that I was just referring to his later life, not his professional career. He was always a proper professional. And the brothers were one of the closest families in show business, even if they had their well-known disputes. > > \ > > Of course, anyone who calls himself Exapno Mapcase has no problem recommending _Harpo Speaks_. So we are in total agreement! I thought we might be, but I didn’t want people who don’t recognise the name “Exapno Mapcase” to get a wrong impression. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![NicePete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee7513/32.png) [@NicePete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NicePete)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2004, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-biggest-bitch-male-or-female-in-hollywood-history/226108/72 "2004-01-29T04:49:54Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > Gabe Kaplan, of _Welcome Back Kotter_ fame destroyed the show, got his fellow cast members to hate him, threw gigantic tantrums, delayed production with ego-driven walkouts, & put himself out of work more or less permanently. > > After that show was over, he was waiting tables again. I read somewhere that Kaplan became very wealthy investing in the bond market (packaging bond issues, maybe) in the '80s and '90s. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2004, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-biggest-bitch-male-or-female-in-hollywood-history/226108/73 "2004-01-29T08:39:42Z")
Groucho’s own position seems to have been that he had no idea where his nickname came from. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2004, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-biggest-bitch-male-or-female-in-hollywood-history/226108/74 "2004-01-29T13:04:24Z")
Harpo Marx, in his book _“Harpo Speaks!”_ writes that Groucho used a type of cheap luggage called a “grouch bag”. And the nicknames sprang up when a friend of Chico’s was dealing cards to the brothers during a poker game. He was trying for rhymes, & Groucho was the best he could do. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2004, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-biggest-bitch-male-or-female-in-hollywood-history/226108/75 "2004-01-29T17:49:45Z")
Sigh. Using _Harpo Speaks_ for details about the early history of the Marx Brothers is a little like using _The Texas Chainsaw Massacre_ for details about the biography of Ed Gein. You really want to find an independent source. Let’s start with the first biography of the Brothers, Kyle Crichton’s _The Marx Brothers_, from way back in 1950. His is the first telling of what would become The Standard Version. Galesberg, Illinois, performing _Fun in Hi Skule_. Also on the bill, Art Fisher, monologist. Popular comic strip named “Knocko the Monk” about a family of chimps in which all the characters had names ending in “o”. In this version, Fisher has been staking them to dinners and calling to them by nicknames patterned after the strip. > [@](#): > > Gummo was a natural. From youth he had been addicted to rubbers, then known as gumshoes, and wore them practically every day of his life. > > [Leo] was an almost perfect example of a type: … the chicken chaser. … For this reason it is properly pronounced Chicko and not Cheeko. > > Harpo was an obvious designation because of his part in the act, but there is dispute about Groucho. Uncle Al Shean hints that the names derives from the well-known “grouch” bag that Groucho, like all actors, carried around his neck to protect his valuables. The boys scoff at the idea. “Take one look at the guy,” they cry, " and see what else you could call him. This is the ur-tale accepted by all later writers, who pretty much alternately opt for the “grouch bag” or “grouchy continence” theories. Except for Harpo, who inexplicably places the event in “Rockford,” a place that evidently inhabits the same state the Simpson’s “Springfield” does. Harpo does add the detail of the naming taking place at a specific poker game, what has become the Revised Standard Version. There is no evidence for this whatsoever. One other slight detail: there is also no evidence whatsoever of a monologist named Art Fisher. Simon Louvish is the first biographer to actually research the legends associated with Marx Brothers myth. In this he had the invaluable help of Paul Wesolowski, founder of the Marx Brotherhood and the world’s greatest authority on all things Marx. In _Monkey Business_, he writes: > [@](#): > > _The Groucho Phile_ dates the year as 1914, and the Marxian historians offer a specific day, 15 May - as good a day as any for legends. > > Paul Wesolowski (‘Wesso’) found a reference to the Marx Brothers’ intended appearance in Galesburg, Illinois, in 1914, but no verifying record in the Galesberg press. Neither he nor I have been able to find hair nor hide of Art Fisher. Far from being a monologist, he appears to have been an illusionist, vanishing himself out of history. The comic strip reference would suggest that the naming took place much earlier, during ‘Mr. Green’s Reception,’ as ‘Sherlocko’ ran from 1911 to 1913 and then mutated, after threats of legal action by Sherlock Holmes author Arthur Conan Doyle’s American agents, into ‘Braggo the Monk’ and then, dropping the ‘o’, into ‘Hawkshaw the Detective.’ Furthermore, no playbill lists them as using the any of these names until 1919 and they didn’t start using them full time until their first Broadway show, _I’ll Say She Is_ in 1924. Hey, don’t worry about it. Nothing in that other “Standard Version” is historically accurate either. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Punkyova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@The\_Punkyova](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Punkyova)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2004, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-biggest-bitch-male-or-female-in-hollywood-history/226108/76 "2004-01-29T20:21:59Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > What, no mention of Bing Crosby? Well, YOU ALL GET THE BELT! (Whap! Whap!) Actually, his other children strongly dispute Gary’s version of their upbringing, and Gary himself admits that he suffers from alcoholic blackouts, and can remember neither some of the events in the book, nor telling his co-author some of the stuff in it. This is another case where I don’t think the accusation fits the OP. Let’s assume, for a moment, that Gary’s version is true. Bing’s first wife, Dixie, was an alcoholic, and no help on the domestic front. His second wife was quite capable, and she and her children describe an almost idyllic family life. Throughout all of this, Bing’s professional life was exemplary. He showed up on time, he knew his lines and his songs, he treated his co-workers and production crews with respect. This is the picture of a man who is not perfect, but not of someone who deserves to be called a self-absorbed, obnoxious, miserable, thoroughly unlikeable person. ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2004, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-biggest-bitch-male-or-female-in-hollywood-history/226108/77 "2004-01-29T22:32:52Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > Except for Harpo, who inexplicably places the event in “Rockford,” a place that evidently inhabits the same state the Simpson’s “Springfield” does. Maybe he’s confused his stops. Rockford is another city in Illinois, about 150 miles away. Not that it makes the story any less of a myth, of course. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2004, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-biggest-bitch-male-or-female-in-hollywood-history/226108/78 "2004-01-29T22:49:08Z")
> [@Governor Quinn](#): > > Maybe he’s confused his stops. Rockford is another city in Illinois, about 150 miles away. > > Not that it makes the story any less of a myth, of course. 😃 As someone from that area, i can tell you Rockford and Galesburg aren’t that much different, so it is understandable. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2004, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-biggest-bitch-male-or-female-in-hollywood-history/226108/79 "2004-01-30T04:26:00Z")
There are Rockfords in many states, just as there are Springfields in many states. Yeah, I know, if you have to explain a joke… ---
**Author:** ![Breezy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@Breezy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Breezy)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2004, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-biggest-bitch-male-or-female-in-hollywood-history/226108/80 "2004-01-30T15:55:41Z")
> [@The Punkyova](#): > > Actually, his other children strongly dispute Gary’s version of their upbringing, and Gary himself admits that he suffers from alcoholic blackouts, and can remember neither some of the events in the book, nor telling his co-author some of the stuff in it. > > This is another case where I don’t think the accusation fits the OP. Let’s assume, for a moment, that Gary’s version is true. Bing’s first wife, Dixie, was an alcoholic, and no help on the domestic front. His second wife was quite capable, and she and her children describe an almost idyllic family life. Throughout all of this, Bing’s professional life was exemplary. He showed up on time, he knew his lines and his songs, he treated his co-workers and production crews with respect. This is the picture of a man who is not perfect, but not of someone who deserves to be called a self-absorbed, obnoxious, miserable, thoroughly unlikeable person. I read the book that Tina Sinatra wrote about her father, and she described living near the Crosby’s and how the Crosby children would sometimes hide from Bing in Sinatra’s house because there was a lot of trouble in their household. I got the impression that it was a very abusive environment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-biggest-bitch-male-or-female-in-hollywood-history/226108.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-biggest-bitch-male-or-female-in-hollywood-history/226108.md?page=5)