# Who Was the Greatest President of All Time? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 25, 2014, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-greatest-president-of-all-time/691593 "2014-06-25T07:20:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![JEngelman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e79b87/32.png) [@JEngelman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JEngelman)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-greatest-president-of-all-time/691593/141 "2014-07-09T06:48:29Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > How was the United States post-Lincoln an ‘empire’ by any sane definition? The only ‘empire’ enthusiasts around at the time were the Confederates who wanted to expand south and sieze Cuba. > > Yes, the purpose of a government is (in large part) to bring evil men to heel. And more generally, to facilitate the general welfare. What do you think governments are for? > > I don’t _love_ any American President, but I think Lincoln was the best. Abraham Lincoln is my second choice after Franklin Roosevelt. I like strong leaders who achieve things. Lincoln freed the slaves, restored the Union, and set the United States on the path to become the richest and strongest country in the world. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-greatest-president-of-all-time/691593/142 "2014-07-09T15:01:08Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Poverty, both worldwide and domestically, had been declining at far more rapid rates before the warmonger LBJ got involved. **In fact by hindering voluntary exchange he could only have had a negative impact.** Cite? > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > To state that the war on poverty, that took place simultaneously with capitalism . . . :rolleyes: **Everything** in American history since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution here took place “simultaneously with capitalism,” including the crass and heartless exploitation of the Gilded Age, and including the increasing inequality and decline in working American’s purchasing power over the last 30 years. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > . . . is the cause of gains against poverty is NPR level analysis. To call something “NPR level analysis” is quite a compliment, you know. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-greatest-president-of-all-time/691593/143 "2014-07-09T15:04:42Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > How was the United States post-Lincoln an ‘empire’ by any sane definition? The only ‘empire’ enthusiasts around at the time were the Confederates who wanted to expand south and sieze Cuba. Well, America has been an empire since about the time of the Spanish-American War, but actual imperialism clearly is not what **WillFarnaby** is thinking of. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-greatest-president-of-all-time/691593/144 "2014-07-09T15:47:23Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, America has been an empire since about the time of the Spanish-American War, but actual imperialism clearly is not what **WillFarnaby** is thinking of. I guess you could make a case that the Mexican-American war was an imperial land-grab, but even still, didn’t Lincoln _oppose_ the Mexican-American war? ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-greatest-president-of-all-time/691593/145 "2014-07-09T15:50:45Z")
> [@JEngelman](#): > > Abraham Lincoln is my second choice after Franklin Roosevelt. I like strong leaders who achieve things. Lincoln freed the slaves, restored the Union, and set the United States on the path to become the richest and strongest country in the world. I like FDR too, but I think the change from a slavery-based order to a ‘free’ capitalist one was a bigger and more radical change (economically and socially) than the change from unregulated capitalism to social democracy. I guess beating the Nazis goes to FDR’s credit too, but he didn’t do that single-handedly, unlike Lincoln with the Confederacy. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-greatest-president-of-all-time/691593/146 "2014-07-09T15:57:25Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Given that FDR was willing to ignore the Constitution to imprison a race of people, I think it’s fair to say what he thought of that document, and human rights in general. It amazes me what some people are willing to overlook because Social Security. Certainly the Japanese internment was not his finest hour, though again you are talking about an action ratified (wrongly, of course) by SCOTUS. I am willing to overlook war actions to a slight degree, as I do with Bush and Obama’s drone campaigns. For the record, Roosevelt did not “imprison a race of people”. He signed an executive order which gave broad authority to military officials and _they_ interned the Japanese (and only on the West Coast). That’s really just a nitpick though. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-greatest-president-of-all-time/691593/147 "2014-07-09T15:59:59Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I guess you could make a case that the Mexican-American war was an imperial land-grab, but even still, didn’t Lincoln _oppose_ the Mexican-American war? [Yes, he did.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_(president)#Congressman_Lincoln) > [@](#): > > On foreign and military policy, Lincoln spoke out against the Mexican–American War, which he attributed to President Polk’s desire for “military glory—that attractive rainbow, that rises in showers of blood”.[60] Lincoln also supported the Wilmot Proviso, which, if it had been adopted, would have banned slavery in any U.S. territory won from Mexico.[61] > > Lincoln emphasized his opposition to Polk by drafting and introducing his Spot Resolutions. The war had begun with a Mexican slaughter of American soldiers in territory disputed by Mexico and the U.S. Polk insisted that Mexican soldiers had “invaded our territory and shed the blood of our fellow-citizens on our own soil”.[62][63] Lincoln demanded that Polk show Congress the exact spot on which blood had been shed and prove that the spot was on American soil.[63] > > Congress never enacted the resolution or even debated it, the national papers ignored it, and it resulted in a loss of political support for Lincoln in his district. One Illinois newspaper derisively nicknamed him “spotty Lincoln”.[64][65][66] Lincoln later regretted some of his statements, especially his attack on the presidential war-making powers.[67] ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-greatest-president-of-all-time/691593/148 "2014-07-09T16:54:12Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Certainly the Japanese internment was not his finest hour, though again you are talking about an action ratified (wrongly, of course) by SCOTUS. I am willing to overlook war actions to a slight degree, as I do with Bush and Obama’s drone campaigns. That’s my issue though, is when Democrats with great domestic accomplishments do terrible things, it’s unfortunate, but doesn’t detract much from their legacy. If a Republican President commits a far lesser crime, he’s Hitler reborn. I have never seen any real daylight between the Democrats and Republicans on foreign policy and the propensity to go to war. When Democrats attack Republican foreign policy, it strikes me that it’s really about their domestic policies. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-greatest-president-of-all-time/691593/149 "2014-07-09T17:00:57Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I have never seen any real daylight between the Democrats and Republicans on foreign policy and the propensity to go to war. I think the difference between '00 to '08 and '08 to now is pretty striking regarding the ‘propensity to go to war’. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-greatest-president-of-all-time/691593/150 "2014-07-09T17:05:14Z")
I’ll acknowledge that Iraq is an exception. That was a war that only a faction of the Republican Party could have initiated. But it is an exception and that particular faction has been sidelined as the party rediscovers its isolationist impulses in response to that debacle. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-greatest-president-of-all-time/691593/151 "2014-07-09T17:07:52Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I > > I guess beating the Nazis goes to FDR’s credit too, but he didn’t do that single-handedly, unlike Lincoln with the Confederacy. Well, Lincoln did have an army and navy to do it for him. He was, after all, only single-handed in beating back the undead menace. If we are going to give “single-handed” credit to the president for winning wars (a bizarre concept), I’ve got to go with FDR. Using that standard, he did beat Imperial Japan all by himself, while fully supplying the Western European allies, a lot of the USSR’s supplies and a lot of the fighting on the Western Front, a lot more than it took to beat Tojo. While in a wheelchair. Also, let’s not forget that FDR provoked the war with Japan, getting the US to fight a real fight for freedom by embargoing all US oil sales to Japan. This was visionary. Of course, as fans of SNL history will recall, FDR didn’t win the war single-handedly, as Eleanor Roosevelt could fly and lead bombing missions for the US Army Air Force. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-greatest-president-of-all-time/691593/152 "2014-07-09T17:42:12Z")
And wasn’t Lincoln a kick-ass vampire killer? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-greatest-president-of-all-time/691593/153 "2014-07-09T17:44:42Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’ll acknowledge that Iraq is an exception. That was a war that only a faction of the Republican Party could have initiated. But it is an exception and that particular faction has been sidelined as the party rediscovers its isolationist impulses in response to that debacle. Then why is it Pubs and neocons who are now demanding military action against ISIS? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-greatest-president-of-all-time/691593/154 "2014-07-09T18:15:25Z")
Isis is Al Qaeda and falls under the original AUMF. Plus you don’t snatch defeat from the jaws of victory even in a war we shouldn’t have fought. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-greatest-president-of-all-time/691593/155 "2014-07-09T18:42:06Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Isis is Al Qaeda and falls under the original AUMF. That is no answer. > [@adaher](#): > > Plus you don’t snatch defeat from the jaws of victory even in a war we shouldn’t have fought. :mad: And **that** is sunk-cost-fallacy bullshit! We’ve had quite enough of **that** since 2003! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-greatest-president-of-all-time/691593/156 "2014-07-09T19:31:45Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Isis is Al Qaeda and falls under the original AUMF. Plus you don’t snatch defeat from the jaws of victory even in a war we shouldn’t have fought. This is nonsense. There were no ‘jaws of victory’. We were _never_ close to victory. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-greatest-president-of-all-time/691593/157 "2014-07-09T21:24:17Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That’s my issue though, is when Democrats with great domestic accomplishments do terrible things, it’s unfortunate, but doesn’t detract much from their legacy. If a Republican President commits a far lesser crime, he’s Hitler reborn. I have never seen any real daylight between the Democrats and Republicans on foreign policy and the propensity to go to war. When Democrats attack Republican foreign policy, it strikes me that it’s really about their domestic policies. I don’t know about that. I don’t give Truman shit for dropping the bomb and I wouldn’t have given him any extra shit for doing what FDR did. On the other hand I would have given _any_ modern POTUS shit for the Japanese internment, as I did for Gitmo. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_from\_CB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/278dde/32.png) [@Alex\_from\_CB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_from_CB)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-greatest-president-of-all-time/691593/158 "2014-07-09T22:10:51Z")
Originally Posted by Stringbean View Post Trying to stack the Supreme Court because they kept striking down your Unconstitutional legislation is single greatest shame in our country’s history. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > This is one of the ten dumbest statements ever posted on this board. I’ve only frequented this forum off and on for about 15, 18 years but I think this (by this Stringbean person) is perhaps the very dumbest statement I’ve ever read here. ---
**Author:** ![orangeapples](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@orangeapples](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orangeapples)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-greatest-president-of-all-time/691593/159 "2014-07-10T00:39:38Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’ll acknowledge that Iraq is an exception. That was a war that only a faction of the Republican Party could have initiated. But it is an exception and that particular faction has been sidelined as the party rediscovers its isolationist impulses in response to that debacle. It doesn’t appear that John McCain, Lindsay Graham, Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, John Bolton, et al got that memo. Judging by repeated calls to intervene in the Ukraine, Syria, Iraq, etc. Granted, I got that list from a recent The Daily Show (late June '14). But to be fair, Mr. Stewart doesn’t invent the hypocrisy, he just highlights it with funny graphics and the verbal equivalent of one of these :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-greatest-president-of-all-time/691593/160 "2014-07-10T01:05:59Z")
I wouldn’t say that FDR’s court-packing scheme was a worse shame than slavery… but it was still awfully bad. If it had gone through, we wouldn’t today be talking about 15 justices as the new normal, because it wouldn’t have stopped at 15. Rather, every time the Presidency changed hands, the new President would pack the court with enough new justices to give his side a solid majority. The Court would effectively cease to exist as an independent branch of government, and just be absorbed into the executive branch, and we’d have two-thirds of the strings of government in the hands of one man. And we don’t actually have an American empire, but if it weren’t for Lincoln, we very well might have. It’s hardly far-fetched to imagine that one of the hundreds of nations we would have had without him might have had an authoritarian and expansionist bent, and would have conquered the rest of the fragile and fragmented splinter nations. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-greatest-president-of-all-time/691593.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-greatest-president-of-all-time/691593.md?page=9)