# Who was the last person "outed" for passing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 19, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466 "2011-11-19T17:26:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Becky2844](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Becky2844](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Becky2844)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466/101 "2011-11-22T04:54:59Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > I’ve always wondered how Obama gets off passing as the “first African-American President” when his mother Stanley Ann Dunham, was born in Wichita, Kansas and was of English and Irish descent. His father is a black man, from Kenya. ---
**Author:** ![Becky2844](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Becky2844](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Becky2844)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466/102 "2011-11-22T05:09:57Z")
> [@VOW](#): > > There were always “Hollywood Secrets” about White stars who supposedly gave birth to Black babies. As the stories were told, it was because a grandparent had “passed” and that tell-tale drop of Black blood had finally resurfaced. > > I can’t even recall who the stories were about, LOL, but it was always a beautiful blonde starlet. > > I guess the agents for the starlets were given the task of whisking the baby away, to be raised by others. > > The business about “a drop of Black blood” is nonsense. Best bet, if a blonde starlet gave birth to a Black baby, she had a Black boyfriend somewhere. > > Scandals were made in Hollywood about biracial couples. One of my favorite stars, Inger Stevens, took her own life because she was not able to stand up to the prejudice of a relationship with someone of another race. > ~VOW I’m not sure about this, but I think the “one drop” rule was actually something legal. If you were of at all mixed blood, and didn’t mark “Negro” on whatever questionaire, and were found out…you could get fired, defamed, or whatever. I “know” this from the '50s. ---
**Author:** ![Cayuga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Cayuga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cayuga)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466/103 "2011-11-22T05:30:35Z")
I’m used to revealing my ignorance on these boards, so put me down as a white guy who had no clue that either Wentworth Miller or Mariah Carey had any black heritage. (I’ve seen Miller guest-star on two hour-long dramas, and his skin tone is nothing like it appears in the picture **Citizen** linked to.) ---
**Author:** ![Becky2844](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Becky2844](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Becky2844)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466/104 "2011-11-22T05:38:08Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > My Dad has passed for white his entire life, as did his mother. It was only a couple of years ago when his sister looked up their ancestry that it turned out that not only was his mother half-African (I mean black African-African, too) and half-Indian (or possibly Bangladeshi, due to boundary changes - her father was a ‘Lascar’) but he’d always known that. > > His mother somehow passed as white despite not being white at all; being born in the last decade of the nineteenth century in London, where there’s always been some mixing but not as much then as now, perhaps people just didn’t know what to look for. I only saw her when I was very young and she was extremely old, fat and ill, and the only race I saw in her was Walrus. > > Since the Aunt’s revelation it’s amused me that under the one-drop rule in some regions of the US I would have counted as black. > > (I think my Dad’s own ‘passing’ counts for the OP. Not that he was the last, but, y’know, interesting related family anecdote). Being old, fat and ill I resemble that remark. 🆒 I am the Walrus. ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466/105 "2011-11-22T05:53:18Z")
> [@Becky2844](#): > > I’m not sure about this, but I think the “one drop” rule was actually something legal. If you were of at all mixed blood, and didn’t mark “Negro” on whatever questionaire, and were found out…you could get fired, defamed, or whatever. I “know” this from the '50s. Plessy v. Ferguson, the famous Supreme Court case where they decided that “separate but equal” was acceptable, involved the one-drop rule in its background. The plaintiff in that case was only 1/8 black, but under state law he was categorized as black for the purposes of segregation. However, the case was brought against the segregation law itself; the one-drop rule wasn’t litigated. Of course, the one-drop rule is ridiculous on many levels. ---
**Author:** ![Dunkelheit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dunkelheit/32/248_2.png) [@Dunkelheit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunkelheit)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466/106 "2011-11-22T20:19:51Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Matata](#): > > Despite the red hair and fishbelly white complexions, my brother and I also have veeerrry curly hair (his is actually more kinky than curly,) broad noses, and thick lips. My ex-husband’s telling features are a somewhat broad nose, kinky hair and large lips. The lips are pretty persistent, showing up in both his father and his son as well, and his son has the kinky hair times 1000. I wonder how far down the line those genes would go? Not likely to find out, unfortunately, as his son is profoundly autistic and unlikely to marry or reproduce. One of his brothers has the lips at least, though, so maybe we’ll see that one continuing. ---
**Author:** ![Dunkelheit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dunkelheit/32/248_2.png) [@Dunkelheit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunkelheit)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466/107 "2011-11-22T22:27:13Z")
I’m curious about the genetic ancestry of [Alex Kingston](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Kingston). I always assumed, when I saw her on ER, that she had some African ancestry in there somewhere – probably mainly because of the hair, and perhaps a bit of something about her skin and the shape of her features. But I can’t find anything on what her parents’ racial background might be. Her mother is German and her father is English, but that doesn’t preclude anything as such. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466/108 "2011-11-22T23:20:01Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Matata](#): > > Despite the red hair and fishbelly white complexions, my brother and I also have veeerrry curly hair (his is actually more kinky than curly,) broad noses, and thick lips. How would the participants in this thread read [this person](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/DuquesaAlba_palacio_due%C3%B1as.jpg)’s features? Red hair, check. Light skin, check. Kinky hair, check. Broad nose, check. Thick lips, check. She’s the Duchess of Alba and she happens to have more officially recognized European titles of nobility than anyone else in the world. (A duchess seven times over, a countess 22 times and a marquesa 24. [Cite](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/07/spain-duchess-marriage-fortune)) Descended from King James II of England/VII of Scotland, and related to the Churchills and Princess Diana. She’s as blueblood as it’s possible for a person to be. Wasn’t there a thread a few years back about a crackpot who insisted that all the royals of Europe were black Africans passing as white? That was quite silly. However, Doña Cayetana is Spanish and it’s a historical fact that Spain’s population has absorbed a certain quantum of Moorish ancestry, is all that comes to mind (_limpieza de sangre_ aside). But then everyone’s ancestry traces back to Africa. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466/109 "2011-11-22T23:49:36Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > How would the participants in this thread read [this person](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/DuquesaAlba_palacio_due%C3%B1as.jpg)’s features? Scary enough to give me nightmares, that’s how! Jeez, put a warning up when you post stuff like this. Can’t sleep, Duchess of Alba will eat me… ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466/110 "2011-11-22T23:55:51Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > How would the participants in this thread read [this person](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/DuquesaAlba_palacio_due%C3%B1as.jpg)’s features? Old. > [@](#): > > Wasn’t there a thread a few years back about a crackpot who insisted that all the royals of Europe were black Africans passing as white? I remember that, it was quite bizarre… ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466/111 "2011-11-23T00:09:19Z")
Heh. I remember early internet days when this guy I was marginally friendly went off the deep end and started a site dedicated to the idea that all the East Coast Native American Tribes were really African ruled Kingdoms that were destroyed and deliberately obscured by European colonists. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466/112 "2011-11-23T00:16:36Z")
> [@Jeneva](#): > > I’m curious about the genetic ancestry of [Alex Kingston](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Kingston). I always assumed, when I saw her on ER, that she had some African ancestry in there somewhere – probably mainly because of the hair, and perhaps a bit of something about her skin and the shape of her features. But I can’t find anything on what her parents’ racial background might be. Her mother is German and her father is English, but that doesn’t preclude anything as such. I remember years ago I was watching ER on a television with horrible staticky reception. I just _knew_ that the actress on the screen was a black woman, especially since she was flirting with Eric Lasalle’s character. Later I realized I was wrong, but that feeling remained. She will always be that light-skinned black chick to me! [Representative Debbie Waserman Shultz](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Debbie_Wasserman_Schultz,_official_portrait,_112th_Congress.jpg) is another one who sets off my -dar. For me it’s a combination of her looks and voice. I do not know if she is Jewish, but in general, Jewish folk often make me do a double-take. Which is not TOTALLY strange, since I recently read about a study that found Jews (all major groups combined) have about 3-5% sub-Saharan African ancestry. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Matata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Matata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Matata)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466/113 "2011-11-23T02:19:34Z")
And that strikes me as really funny. No one outside of my grandmother has ever asked me whether I am of African descent, but I’m often mistaken for Jewish, including questions of that sort from the family of my Jewish cousin by marriage. (Mostly I’m asked whether I know that I look like Bette Midler. Short answer: yes.) And, as I said earlier, my brother looks like a very fair Morgan Freeman. Hard to envision unless you know us, but no one with better-than-legally-blind vision would miss that my brother and I are closely related. So I guess we just look like the whitest black Jews on the block? (And yes, my hair looks like Alex Kingston’s - ringlets galore when it’s long. But mine is between strawberry and copper red, I have very fair skin and green eyes, full lips, and a nose that could easily be described as Semitic, Negroid, or “big and ugly” if you ask me.) Mind you, a dear co-worker recently commented to me that I was the blackest white girl she knew, but I think it was meant as a compliment, because I know how to cook soul food (i.e. the stuff readily available to poor folk in southern USA) and dance, and I have a big butt. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466/114 "2011-11-23T02:32:13Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Which is not TOTALLY strange, since I recently read about a study that found Jews (all major groups combined) have about 3-5% sub-Saharan African ancestry. FWIW [Paula Abdul](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_Abdul) is Jewish, with Middle Eastern, Russian and Ukrainian ancestry. I found that a little surprising. And as for people who were successfully passing and never “outed,” I’m still convinced [late 19th century First Sea Lord Jacky Fisher](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Admiral_John_Fisher.jpg) must have been the champion. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466/115 "2011-11-23T02:36:58Z")
Once I caught a ride from the husband of a fellow graduate student (we were leaving the airport together). I was in the car not two minutes before he started talking about black-Jewish interracial relationships during the civil rights movement. He asked if my parents were activists. I was very confused until I realized he was assuming I was both biracial and Jewish. Even though I hadn’t uttered a single word beyond, “Hi, nice to meet you.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466/116 "2011-11-23T15:17:44Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > [Representative Debbie Waserman Shultz](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Debbie_Wasserman_Schultz,_official_portrait,_112th_Congress.jpg) is another one who sets off my -dar. For me it’s a combination of her looks and voice. I do not know if she is Jewish, but in general, Jewish folk often make me do a double-take. Which is not TOTALLY strange, since I recently read about a study that found Jews (all major groups combined) have about 3-5% sub-Saharan African ancestry. She is Jewish. But I doubt that Ashkenazim (of which she would be a member) would have recent African ancestry. Most of them lived in Eastern Europe for hundreds of years. As for the Duchess of Alba, I agree that she just looks old. I don’t see a broad nose, and the hair looks like it was perm’ed. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466/117 "2011-11-23T17:46:23Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > I remember that, it was quite bizarre… For reference (and amusement value), this is the crackpot thread: [Was Europe (1500-1789) a black civilisation? - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=544874) [This is Doña Cayetana when she was young](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_PXPwZ3zBHkU/TNV5Pg9lK7I/AAAAAAAAAHw/hM9vj6Hd6Jc/s1600/DuquesadeAlba.jpg) and not scary-looking. I still think that’s a rather broad nose for a European. But with straight(ened?) hair, the effect is diminished. I’m not saying she is passing, just noting how African-looking features can show up in Europeans, perhaps randomly. [Her](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mar%C3%ADa_del_Rosario_de_Silva,_Duchess_of_Alba.jpg) [parents](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jacobo_Fitz-James_Stuart,_17th_Duke_of_Alba.jpg) don’t look like that. Research into my genealogy has turned up evidence of mixed-race ancestry on both sides of my family, i.e. some of my long-ago ancestors passing for white and becoming assimilated to white, so I take a personal interest in the subject. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466/118 "2011-11-23T18:10:47Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > I’m not saying she is passing, just noting how African-looking features can show up in Europeans, perhaps randomly. I always assumed this to be the case. Irish people (even prior to mass immigration) run the gamut from translucent pale to very sallow. A friend of mine who has no non-Irish ancestry in his recent past gets mistaken for African or Spanish on an occasional basis. He has dreadlocks which I think some people parse as “black” regardless of your complexion. Now it could turn out he does have an African ancestor relatively recently but if he does it’s not to his knowledge, and while his siblings are all dark haired and quite sallow none look quite as Mediterranean as he does. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466/119 "2011-11-23T18:13:55Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > [This is Doña Cayetana when she was young](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_PXPwZ3zBHkU/TNV5Pg9lK7I/AAAAAAAAAHw/hM9vj6Hd6Jc/s1600/DuquesadeAlba.jpg) and not scary-looking. I still think that’s a rather broad nose for a European. You people have some interesting ideas about what black or white noses should look like. Sure, generally speaking, around these parts black people’s noses are broader than whites’, but this idea that if a nose isn’t paper-thin it’s “rather broad for a European” makes me wonder what Europeans this opinion is based on. Her nose’s width looks fairly typical of a white person to me. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466/120 "2011-11-23T18:14:22Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > How would the participants in this thread read [this person](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/DuquesaAlba_palacio_due%C3%B1as.jpg)’s features? > > Red hair, check. Light skin, check. Kinky hair, check. Broad nose, check. Thick lips, check. > > She’s the Duchess of Alba and she happens to have more officially recognized European titles of nobility than anyone else in the world. (A duchess seven times over, a countess 22 times and a marquesa 24. [Cite](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/07/spain-duchess-marriage-fortune)) Descended from King James II of England/VII of Scotland, and related to the Churchills and Princess Diana. She’s as blueblood as it’s possible for a person to be. Wasn’t there a thread a few years back about a crackpot who insisted that all the royals of Europe were black Africans passing as white? That was quite silly. However, Doña Cayetana is Spanish and it’s a historical fact that Spain’s population has absorbed a certain quantum of Moorish ancestry, is all that comes to mind (_limpieza de sangre_ aside). But then everyone’s ancestry traces back to Africa. Classic answer is a nigger in the woodpile, in a manner of speaking. Dude - casual bastardy can not be entirely eliminated unless you wall the married couple up on their honeymoon and don’t let them out until the kid is on the way. They did have black servants in Europe as far back as _Imperial Rome_ you know. One boink on the sly at the wrong/right time and you have a bastard. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466.md?page=7)