# Who was the last person "outed" for passing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 19, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466 "2011-11-19T17:26:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466/121 "2011-11-23T18:20:06Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > [This is Doña Cayetana when she was young](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_PXPwZ3zBHkU/TNV5Pg9lK7I/AAAAAAAAAHw/hM9vj6Hd6Jc/s1600/DuquesadeAlba.jpg) and not scary-looking. Wow, she was quite pretty for any woman, much less overly inbred European royalty! Agreed I don’t think her nose looks “broad for a european”, she doesn’t have a Courtney Cox razor-nose, but most people who haven’t had work done don’t. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466/122 "2011-11-23T20:35:09Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > She is Jewish. > > But I doubt that Ashkenazim (of which she would be a member) would have recent African ancestry. Most of them lived in Eastern Europe for hundreds of years. Here is an [excerpt](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/05/110524153536.htm) from the article I referred to earlier: _While the researchers detected no African genetic signatures in Northern European populations, they found a distinct presence of African ancestry in Southern European, Middle Eastern and Jewish populations. Modern southern European groups can attribute about 1 to 3 percent of their genetic signature to African ancestry, with the intermingling of populations dating back 55 generations, on average – that is, to roughly 1,600 years ago. Middle Eastern groups have inherited about 4 to 15 percent, with the mixing of populations dating back roughly 32 generations. A diverse array of Jewish populations can date their Sub-Saharan African ancestry back roughly 72 generations, on average, accounting for 3 to 5 percent of their genetic makeup today._. Having your ancestors residing on a continent for “hundreds of years” does not mean there was no intermingling with other groups who had other origins. Eastern Europe, of all places, has seen waves of invaders and immigrants who spread all kinds of genetic markers all up and through various populations. I am not saying that Jews have recent African ancestry, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466/123 "2011-11-23T20:59:23Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > You people have some interesting ideas about what black or white noses should look like. Sure, generally speaking, around these parts black people’s noses are broader than whites’, but this idea that if a nose isn’t paper-thin it’s “rather broad for a European” makes me wonder what Europeans this opinion is based on. Her nose’s width looks fairly typical of a white person to me. So true. If you look at East Asians, you often find broad noses. Nose shape is just like hair texture. We would never say, if a random person has straight hair, that they must have white ancestry. Straight hair can be found on all continents. Same with curly, wiry hair. There’s no reason to assume that this MUST be an African trait. When someone uses the phrase “keen facial features” to hint at European ancestry, I inwardly go “Ruh?” What exactly does that mean? Pointy, sharp features? Well, you can find sharp features all over the world. And you can find faces that have a mixture of sharp and less-than-sharp features. Like an aqualine nose with prominent cheek bones, full lips, and a round chin. I look at a picture of these [girls](http://fawerwa.org/images/1.jpg) and I’m at a loss to describe their features (other than adorable). ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466/124 "2011-11-23T21:09:18Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > So true. > > If you look at East Asians, you often find broad noses. Nose shape is just like hair texture. We would never say, if a random person has straight hair, that they must have white ancestry. Straight hair can be found on all continents. > > Same with curly, wiry hair. There’s no reason to assume that this MUST be an African trait. > > When someone uses the phrase “keen facial features” to hint at European ancestry, I inwardly go “Ruh?” What exactly does that mean? Pointy, sharp features? Well, you can find sharp features all over the world. And you can find faces that have a mixture of sharp and less-than-sharp features. Like an aqualine nose with prominent cheek bones, full lips, and a round chin. I look at a picture of these [girls](http://fawerwa.org/images/1.jpg) and I’m at a loss to describe their features (other than adorable). I agree with your post as a whole, and yet your adorable girls (and I agree that they are adorable) do have rather broad noses compared to what I think of as European features, and perhaps slightly fuller lips than a typical northern European, in so far as a typical northern European exists. Certainly their features suggest sub-Saharan African ancestry to me over all, even if they’re actually from Paris or Winnipeg. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466/125 "2011-11-23T21:20:52Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > I agree with your post as a whole, and yet your adorable girls (and I agree that they are adorable) do have rather broad noses compared to what I think of as European features, and perhaps slightly fuller lips than a typical northern European, in so far as a typical northern European exists. Certainly their features suggest sub-Saharan African ancestry to me over all, even if they’re actually from Paris or Winnipeg. And yet I instantly recognize them as not being African Americans or west Africans or south Africans. Their faces say _something_ besides “black” to me. And I think it is because there is a certain “keen-ness” and “narrowness” in their faces. But I wouldn’t attribute this aspect to European ancestry, which is my bigger point. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466/126 "2011-11-23T21:39:50Z")
Well, Africa has the widest genetic divergence in the world, so it would hardly be surprising if there were different regional “looks” across various parts of Africa. Even I, a whiter-than-white American, can sometimes recognize them (although, admittedly, what links those girls together to me is more a matter of their hair being very short and their (mostly uniform) clothes being atypical of western Europe or US). It seems to me, for example, that the Kalihai bush people have a fairly distinctive look, just going by very flawed memory. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466/127 "2011-11-23T21:41:32Z")
> [@robardin](#): > > Has there ever been a known case of “white” people passing as someone black passing as someone white, like in Langston Hughes’ short story [_Who’s Passing For Who?_](http://www.scritube.com/limba/engleza/human-resources/Whos-Passing-for-Who13711133.php). A story that illustrates exactly how complicated things get when questions of racial identity and privilege get tangled with folks who are in between… It’s not quite the same thing, but the story of [Clarence King / James Todd](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_King) comes pretty close. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466/128 "2011-11-23T21:59:45Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > Well, Africa has the widest genetic divergence in the world, so it would hardly be surprising if there were different regional “looks” across various parts of Africa. Even I, a whiter-than-white American, can sometimes recognize them (although, admittedly, what links those girls together to me is more a matter of their hair being very short and their (mostly uniform) clothes being atypical of western Europe or US). It seems to me, for example, that the Kalihai bush people have a fairly distinctive look, just going by very flawed memory. The KoiSan people are a very distinct ethnic group, and don’t look much like any other group anywhere in the world. Or rather, they look a little bit like a lot of different groups-- they have tightly curled hair, medium brown skin, high cheekbones and their eyes often have epicanthic folds. I can certainly tell East Africans (Ethiopian, for example) from West Africans. But you’re right, there is a lot of variability in Africa, as with any continent. **monstro** : I get what you’re saying now about Jews. I was thinking, in the context of this thread, that we were only talking about recent ancestry. Having 2-3% African ancestry from 1600 years ago is not likely to affect your appearance in any significant way, though. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466/129 "2011-11-23T22:05:53Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > Obama’s appearance would clearly classify him, in most other people’s eyes, as African-American, or at least of clearly mixed ancestry. Thus, his experience of America would be one in which he was treated by most others as African-American and not white. I sort of object to this too but frankly I think that people can (within reason) call themsevles whatever they like. My wife calls herself bi-racial. She will not call herself black or white despite pressure from both races to do so. She feels that to pick one “side” would be a sign of disrespect to the other “side” of her family. I follow her view on this, it’s her right to call herself whateve she wants. Obama would call himself purple if he could get votes for it but he’s a politician. I always thought Tiger Woods was quite classy and bracve when he told Oprah that he wasn’t black. Our son is 1/4 black but he looks white. He can call himself whatever he likes. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466/130 "2011-11-23T22:29:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The KoiSan people are a very distinct ethnic group, and don’t look much like any other group anywhere in the world. Or rather, they look a little bit like a lot of different groups-- they have tightly curled hair, medium brown skin, high cheekbones and their eyes often have epicanthic folds. > > I can certainly tell East Africans (Ethiopian, for example) from West Africans. But you’re right, there is a lot of variability in Africa, as with any continent. > > **monstro** : I get what you’re saying now about Jews. I was thinking, in the context of this thread, that we were only talking about recent ancestry. Having 2-3% African ancestry from 1600 years ago is not likely to affect your appearance in any significant way, though. There is also a large group of Ethiopean Jews. That separated from the larger group centuries ago. The Falashan Jews look just like any other East Africans. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466/131 "2012-01-17T01:02:18Z")
> [@Indygrrl](#): > > Interesting you bring him up because he starred in a movie called the Human Stain, where he plays a younger version of the character played by Anthony Hopkins. The basic story is that Hopkins’ character is a college professor who gets busted for having “passed” throughout his life. It flashes back to when he was in college and was dating a white girl and lost her when her parents found out he was black, and how his mom insisted he say he was white so he’d have more opportunities. In the novel it was quite different. He lost the white girl when the white girl found out his family was black. And he decided to pass, not due to his mother’s insistence but rather simply because he one day discovered he could. His mother hated the idea but had no say in the matter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-last-person-outed-for-passing/603466.md?page=6)