# Who was the most liberal President? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 31, 2009, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-most-liberal-president/491383 "2009-03-31T01:40:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-most-liberal-president/491383/21 "2009-03-31T14:14:02Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > I agree with this. Civil rights legislation is very “liberal”\* and starting wars in other countries in order to provoke regime change, ostensibly for the benefit of the people there, is not very conservative\*. > > \*By the OP’s definitions. I can’t recall Johnson starting a war to provoke regime change. Cite please ? ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-most-liberal-president/491383/22 "2009-03-31T14:16:15Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > I can’t recall Johnson starting a war to provoke regime change. Cite please ? Johnson was involved in a little war in south east Asia, but it seemed to be designed to prevent (rather than provoke) regime change in Saigon. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-most-liberal-president/491383/23 "2009-03-31T14:31:22Z")
OP, just to clarify, are we talking about the “most liberal” President in absolute terms, or are we talking about the most liberal President when compared to his contemporaries? ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-most-liberal-president/491383/24 "2009-03-31T14:43:02Z")
The most “statist” presidents in American history were Woodrow Wilson, Lyndon Johnson, and Richard Nixon. All three combined relentless expansion of domestic government spending, increased government regulation of the economy (remember Nixon’s wage and price controls?), disregard for individual rights, and a bellicose foreign policy. FDR and George W. Bush were in the next echelon, equal on some metrics but not on all four. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-most-liberal-president/491383/25 "2009-03-31T20:35:07Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > I can’t recall Johnson starting a war to provoke regime change. He sent 20,000 troops into the Dominican Republic in 1965 for that purpose, after covertly supporting the 1964 military coup in Brazil. If instead you’re quibbling over the word “starting” instead of “escalating” in reference to Vietnam, that isn’t really a winning argument. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-most-liberal-president/491383/26 "2009-03-31T20:39:29Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > If we use the definitions in the OP then I think Jefferson becomes very conservative. He (mostly) pared back the Federal government and, despite being a Francophile, attempted to stay out of European entanglements. There was that small matter of the Louisiana Purchase, however. > [@](#): > > For his time, though, I believe Jefferson to be fairly liberal. Yes, he certainly wrote and spoke that way, and he was far from the only white Southerner to rape his slaves and sell his own children. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-most-liberal-president/491383/27 "2009-03-31T20:54:35Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Yes, he certainly wrote and spoke that way, and he was far from the only white Southerner to rape his slaves and sell his own children. Even assuming that all of the Hemings children were Jefferson’s, he never sold any of them. Both Beverly and Harriet, the older two children, were allowed to leave the plantation and pass for white (in all likelihood, they went to Philadelphia together). Madison and Eston, the younger two, were both freed in Jefferson’s will and moved to Ohio. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-most-liberal-president/491383/28 "2009-03-31T21:00:26Z")
“The moral character of Jefferson was repulsive. Continually puling about liberty, equality and the degrading curse of slavery, he brought his own children to the hammer, and money of his debaucheries.” – Alexander Hamilton Perhaps he meant children by other slaves? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-most-liberal-president/491383/29 "2009-03-31T22:10:06Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > OP, just to clarify, are we talking about the “most liberal” President in absolute terms, or are we talking about the most liberal President when compared to his contemporaries? I think this is the core of the problem in discussing this issue. Most people seem to be defining past presidents by using many of today’s liberal/conservative issues but measuring them on a scale based on their own times. So, for example, if Lincoln freed the slaves but would not have supported affirmative action favoring African-Americans, he’s a “liberal” in that he favored increased rights for African-Americans, but he’s a “conservative” in that he wouldn’t support some of what purports to favor them now. The reason this is significant is because these discussions frequently take place in a similar context to the thread that spawned this one - public policy. And for purposes of public policy, what counts is whether this particular public policy will have a positive or negative impact, not whether other policies that would have carried similar labels in their time had positive or negative impacts. So, in the example above, if someone believes that AA would be a net negative for this country, it doesn’t matter that other similarly “liberal” policies in the past were positive. It only matters whether this specific policy would be good or bad. So in the example of Obama specifically, if one were to suggest that a) he is the most left-wing president in history, and b) that this is not a Good Thing, you can’t contradict this by saying that the second most left-wing president had a positive impact, if the specific policies of that other president were actually far to the right of Obama and were only left-wing when measured by contemporary standards. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-most-liberal-president/491383/30 "2009-04-01T01:30:25Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] “The moral character of Jefferson was repulsive. Continually puling about liberty, equality and the degrading curse of slavery, he brought his own children to the hammer, and money of his debaucheries.” – Alexander Hamilton [/QUOTE] You are kidding, right? You are using THIS as a cite for Jefferson’s supposed actions? This is the equivalent of using the statements of the Swift Boaters to prove Kerry’s war record (to put it in terms you’d understand). -XT ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-most-liberal-president/491383/31 "2009-04-01T01:37:24Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > You are kidding, right? You are using THIS as a cite for Jefferson’s supposed actions? Alexander Hamilton’s face is on the $10 banknote. Jefferson’s is on the 5¢ nickel. $10 is more than 5¢, therefore Hamilton’s opinion is more credible. (One excludes Mt Rushmore because granite is not a piece of currency. That would be a fallacy.) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-most-liberal-president/491383/32 "2009-04-01T02:08:29Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > True to a certain extent. But Wilson was definitely a conservative on racial issues. No way. Wilson’s strange views on race were not driven by any sense on conservatism - social Darwinism and eugenics (which he enthusiastically backed) were progressive notions backed by most of the preeminent liberal thinkers of the day. As for Wilson’s overall stance, examined as a whole it goes way beyond liberalism as it is commonly understood in America. If you include things like eugenics, the Palmer raids and the American Protective League - you’re getting awfully close to fascism, if you look at it objectively. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-most-liberal-president/491383/33 "2009-04-01T04:08:07Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > There was that small matter of the Louisiana Purchase, however. There was also the attempted Embargo of 1807, which shows the even Jefferson wasn’t completely conservative. Still, if “small government” is part of the definition of a conservative there was no president more conservative than Jefferson. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Yes, he certainly wrote and spoke that way, and he was far from the only white Southerner to rape his slaves and sell his own children. Jefferson may have had the weakest character of any president but I’m not sure what that has to do with being conservative or liberal. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-most-liberal-president/491383/34 "2009-04-01T13:43:58Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > Alexander Hamilton’s face is on the $10 banknote. Jefferson’s is on the 5¢ nickel. > > $10 is more than 5¢, therefore Hamilton’s opinion is more credible. > > (One excludes Mt Rushmore because granite is not a piece of currency. That would be a fallacy.) But Tom Jefferson is also on the $2 bill. Two items of currency beat one item, regardless of denomination. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-most-liberal-president/491383/35 "2009-04-01T15:50:01Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > Jefferson may have had the weakest character of any president but I’m not sure what that has to do with being conservative or liberal. Depends on what version of “conservative” we’re using here - fiscal, government-size, or social. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-most-liberal-president/491383/36 "2009-04-01T15:51:46Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > You are kidding, right? You are using THIS as a cite for Jefferson’s supposed actions? The voice of a contemporary who knew him well (and hated him, yes). Is it or is it not true that Jefferson didn’t walk his talk? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-most-liberal-president/491383/37 "2009-04-01T16:13:31Z")
I’ll vote for Mr Washington. That independence thing’s pretty liberal, you know. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-most-liberal-president/491383/38 "2009-04-01T16:34:28Z")
Under Wilsons term we got progressive income tax Clayton anti trust act FTC Fed, Farm Loan Act League of nations Pretty progressive for a Princeton Prof. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-most-liberal-president/491383/39 "2009-04-01T17:29:16Z")
How do those things in any way contradict what I said about Wilson above? ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-most-liberal-president/491383/40 "2009-04-01T19:00:47Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Depends on what version of “conservative” we’re using here - fiscal, government-size, or social. I’m still not sure how his character determines his politics. Are you implying that his foibles somehow makes him liberal? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-most-liberal-president/491383.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-most-liberal-president/491383.md?page=3)