# Who was the standard-bearer for EVIL prior to Hitler? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 2, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-standard-bearer-for-evil-prior-to-hitler/617596 "2012-04-02T16:58:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-standard-bearer-for-evil-prior-to-hitler/617596/21 "2012-04-03T16:55:27Z")
Previous thread on the [subject](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=373825) ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-standard-bearer-for-evil-prior-to-hitler/617596/22 "2012-04-03T17:01:30Z")
On a related note, what was the standard-bearer for THE BEST prior to sliced bread? ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-standard-bearer-for-evil-prior-to-hitler/617596/23 "2012-04-03T20:51:53Z")
Surprised it took this long to bring Stalin. Estimated 20 million dead. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-standard-bearer-for-evil-prior-to-hitler/617596/24 "2012-04-03T21:11:21Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Surprised it took this long to bring Stalin. Estimated 20 million dead. Because his evil infamy ( as opposed to his actions ) was after Hitler, not before ---
**Author:** ![67java89](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/6/aeb1de/32.png) [@67java89](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/67java89)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-standard-bearer-for-evil-prior-to-hitler/617596/25 "2012-04-03T21:55:38Z")
How about Rasputin? ---
**Author:** ![67java89](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/6/aeb1de/32.png) [@67java89](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/67java89)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-standard-bearer-for-evil-prior-to-hitler/617596/26 "2012-04-03T22:01:54Z")
> [@67java89](#): > > How about Rasputin? Oh wait, he just _looked_ nasty ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-standard-bearer-for-evil-prior-to-hitler/617596/27 "2012-04-03T22:16:32Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > On a related note, what was the standard-bearer for THE BEST prior to sliced bread? “This is the best thing since rubber condoms!” Or so I would imagine. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-standard-bearer-for-evil-prior-to-hitler/617596/28 "2012-04-03T23:45:30Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I don’t know the answer to OP (though Vlad the Impaler seems a plausible choice), but am surprised to see Napoleon mentioned. > > Napoleon may have waged wars recklessly, but was he really “EVIL”? I don’t think the French would agree. (_Le tombeau de l’Empereur_ made quite an impression on me on my first visit to Paris.) I doubt the French would agree, but the English might. I have no idea about other european nations. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-standard-bearer-for-evil-prior-to-hitler/617596/29 "2012-04-04T13:50:35Z")
The Kaiser. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-standard-bearer-for-evil-prior-to-hitler/617596/30 "2012-04-04T15:10:39Z")
It was Hitler. You know, like, what was the highest Mountain in the world before they discovered Mt. Everest? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-standard-bearer-for-evil-prior-to-hitler/617596/31 "2012-04-04T15:19:37Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > Because his evil infamy ( as opposed to his actions ) was after Hitler, not before I disagree. Stalin was generally considered a murderous bastard well before WWII from his actions in after of Lenin’s death. When the German army rolled in the Ukraine some of the people greated them with bread and salt as liberators freeing them from Stalin’s tyranny. I would stay Stalin or Lenin would be a good candidate for embodiment of evil in the West before Hitler. And to a certain extent Stalin only gets slightly less vilification in popular culture because the Soviet Union was an ally in WWII. ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-standard-bearer-for-evil-prior-to-hitler/617596/32 "2012-04-04T15:23:15Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > No, because a small time serial killer doesn’t even come close to a leader of a gigantic military who aggressively conquered and killed many millions of people. Scale of the atrocities committed don’t matter, it the OP meant whose name was tossed around in conversation as the typical stand-in for for a purely evil person, the way Hitler is used today. I’ll bet Jack the Ripper was certainly used in this fashion for some time. He was quite a celebrity and symbol of evil. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-standard-bearer-for-evil-prior-to-hitler/617596/33 "2012-04-04T16:32:44Z")
> [@Bootis](#): > > Scale of the atrocities committed don’t matter, it the OP meant whose name was tossed around in conversation as the typical stand-in for for a purely evil person, the way Hitler is used today. I’ll bet Jack the Ripper was certainly used in this fashion for some time. He was quite a celebrity and symbol of evil. Not even close. The suggestion was ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-standard-bearer-for-evil-prior-to-hitler/617596/34 "2012-04-04T16:48:43Z")
King Herod was not held in partiularly high esteem. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-standard-bearer-for-evil-prior-to-hitler/617596/35 "2012-04-04T16:57:41Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I disagree. Stalin was generally considered a murderous bastard well before WWII from his actions in after of Lenin’s death. When the German army rolled in the Ukraine some of the people greated them with bread and salt as liberators freeing them from Stalin’s tyranny. I would stay Stalin or Lenin would be a good candidate for embodiment of evil in the West before Hitler. And to a certain extent Stalin only gets slightly less vilification in popular culture because the Soviet Union was an ally in WWII. No doubt that Stalin belongs in the pantheon of worst human beings ever but he was more or less a contemporary of Hitler. He started less than a generation before him. If he was, it wasn’t for long. ---
**Author:** ![It\_s\_Not\_Rocket\_Surgery](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/it_s_not_rocket_surgery/32/312_2.png) [@It\_s\_Not\_Rocket\_Surgery](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/It_s_Not_Rocket_Surgery)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-standard-bearer-for-evil-prior-to-hitler/617596/36 "2012-04-04T16:57:51Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Not even close. The suggestion was ridiculous. Oh, come off it! My suggestion was not nearly as ridiculous as you make it sound: > **[Jack the Ripper | Legacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_the_Ripper#Legacy)** > > The nature of the Ripper murders and the impoverished lifestyle of the victims drew attention to the poor living conditions in the East End and galvanised public opinion against the overcrowded, insanitary slums. In the two decades after the murders, the worst of the slums were cleared and demolished, but the streets and some buildings survive, and the legend of the Ripper is still promoted by various guided tours of the murder sites and other locations pertaining to the case. In the immediate af... From the above: “In the immediate aftermath of the murders, and later, “J **ack the Ripper became the children’s bogey man**.” Depictions were often phantasmic or monstrous. **In the 1920s and 1930s** , he was depicted in film dressed in everyday clothes as a man with a hidden secret preying on his unsuspecting victims; atmosphere and evil were suggested through lighting effects and shadowplay.” “Jack the Ripper features in **hundreds of works of fiction** and works which straddle the boundaries between both fact and fiction, including the Ripper letters and a hoax Diary of Jack the Ripper. The Ripper appears in novels, short stories, poems, comic books, games, songs, plays, operas, television programmes and films.” “In 2006, Jack the Ripper was selected by _BBC History_ magazine and its readers as the **worst Briton in history**.” Which of the above makes him NOT a standard-bearer for EVIL? ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-standard-bearer-for-evil-prior-to-hitler/617596/37 "2012-04-04T17:01:52Z")
> [@It\_s\_Not\_Rocket\_Surgery](#): > > Which of the above makes him NOT a standard-bearer for EVIL? It’s not like I am trying to argue that he was misunderstood or anything but he was certainly not used in the same sense as Hitler which is the question posed in the OP. Not to mention, Jack was used more regionally. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-standard-bearer-for-evil-prior-to-hitler/617596/38 "2012-04-04T17:45:18Z")
My vote is for… ahem… KHAAAAAAAAN (Genghis). The point is, folks like Napoleon waged rather conventional warfare. Genghis destroyed whole villages and such, although maybe he didn’t deserve some of the hate. He wasn’t an uncultured barbarian, for example. Question: how well known was it that Vlad Tepes = Dracula back then, or even his atrocities. Like Cromwell, I know he is hated in some parts and loved in others because he kept the Turks out. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-standard-bearer-for-evil-prior-to-hitler/617596/39 "2012-04-04T17:55:53Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > My vote is for… ahem… KHAAAAAAAAN (Genghis). The point is, folks like Napoleon waged rather conventional warfare. Genghis destroyed whole villages and such, although maybe he didn’t deserve some of the hate. He wasn’t an uncultured barbarian, for example. > > Question: how well known was it that Vlad Tepes = Dracula back then, or even his atrocities. Like Cromwell, I know he is hated in some parts and loved in others because he kept the Turks out. Vlad III was actually fairly unknown outside his native lands where he was a hero who occasionally got too law and order on the people. He didn’t really become famous until the 1970’s when there was interest in all sorts of odd history, conspiracies, monsters, etc. (Remember the In Search Of shows). Raymond McNally’s In Search of Dracula was one of the earliest popular books to discuss Vlad III. ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-standard-bearer-for-evil-prior-to-hitler/617596/40 "2012-04-04T18:24:22Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Not even close. The suggestion was ridiculous. :rolleyes: The OP didn’t ask who was the actual most evil person was before Hitler, it said “standard bearer”, and even listed the boogeyman as a possible answer, which shows he isn’t intending this to be another “who was the most evil person” thread. I’ll contend that from the late 1800s until WWII, in a large portion of the western world, people used Jack the Ripper as a standard of evil to liken someone to more than they did Attila the Hun, and possibly anyone else. It was hardly a ridiculous suggestion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-standard-bearer-for-evil-prior-to-hitler/617596.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-was-the-standard-bearer-for-evil-prior-to-hitler/617596.md?page=3)