# Who were some relatively untalented members of otherwise-talented bands? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 14, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-some-relatively-untalented-members-of-otherwise-talented-bands/574681 "2011-03-14T18:16:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Stormcrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/0ea827/32.png) [@Stormcrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stormcrow)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-some-relatively-untalented-members-of-otherwise-talented-bands/574681/61 "2011-03-15T16:02:26Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > He never got close to Cobain’s success or significance (other than riding his coattails in Nirvana), and his solo career was basically just ok. Nothing special or groundbreaking. Functional power pop. His musicianship and songwriting are fine, but nothing extraordinary. He never held a candle to Kurt’s genius. I’ll agree that Dave Grohl hasn’t had the influence that Cobain has had; very few musicians can make that claim. But I think that the Foo Fighters have probably at this point sold many times the number of albums that Nirvana did. Probably no single album as big as _Nevermind_, but again, that’s a high bar to aim for. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-some-relatively-untalented-members-of-otherwise-talented-bands/574681/62 "2011-03-15T16:02:48Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’s because he didn’t. 😉 He did last a long longer. He’s a better drummer than any of those other things as far as I’m concerned, which isn’t to say he’s not talented. I don’t think I’d ever heard of anyone recording an album basically on their own before he did it for the Foo Fighters’ first album. Ever heard of Prince? ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-some-relatively-untalented-members-of-otherwise-talented-bands/574681/63 "2011-03-15T16:08:37Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Ever heard of Prince? Or Paul McCartney? ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-some-relatively-untalented-members-of-otherwise-talented-bands/574681/64 "2011-03-15T16:17:09Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > Or Paul McCartney? Or Nick Saloman? (OK, you probably haven’t heard of [Nick Saloman](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Saloman). But he is pretty prolific and does tend to record everything himself.) ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-some-relatively-untalented-members-of-otherwise-talented-bands/574681/65 "2011-03-15T16:18:13Z")
I’m surprised this hasn’t been mentioned yet, but I’d have to say Lars Ulrich of Metallica is a perfect example. That he’s often regarded as a metal drumming god is a straight up insult to the genre. I even recall an interview with James Hetfield in which he said the main reason he started the band with him was because of his connections, because he was a bad drummer (can’t seem to find a cite, sorry). Personally, I think his drumming lacks any semblance of creativity and shows little variation, particularly when contrasted with other contemporary metal drummers; worse, it definitely doesn’t age well because it sounds very flat compared to modern drummers, and the drum tracks are usually much more complicated when I hear Metallica covers. Also consider the level of talent that surrounds him. I think James Hetfields vocals were highly regarded for most of their careers, Cliff Burton and Jason Newsted were both very good bassists, and Kirk Hammett was a first class shredder. Ulrich’s lack of talent was blatantly apparent on the abomination called St. Anger in which the drums were turned up. It doesn’t help that he’s a giant douche too. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-some-relatively-untalented-members-of-otherwise-talented-bands/574681/66 "2011-03-15T16:26:00Z")
> [@An\_Arky](#): > > Peter Criss in KISS Was \*\*\*any \*\*\*member of KISS talented? Seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-some-relatively-untalented-members-of-otherwise-talented-bands/574681/67 "2011-03-15T16:26:16Z")
I have to disagree about Lars. I think he’s very good. He’s also well regarded by pretty much every metal drummer I know. He was very influential in that early thrash movement. and his drumming wasn’t bad on _St. Anger_, the album was just horribly mixed and made his drums sound tinny. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-some-relatively-untalented-members-of-otherwise-talented-bands/574681/68 "2011-03-15T16:27:08Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Was \*\*\*any \*\*\*member of KISS talented? Seriously. LOL! Well, they were talented at merchandising. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-some-relatively-untalented-members-of-otherwise-talented-bands/574681/69 "2011-03-15T16:28:11Z")
I agree on Ulrich – think he’s a very average metal drummer, but not sure if I’d call Hammett a “first class shredder,” either. I would put them at about the same talent level. As for Hetfield, I’m not big into his vocals, but man can he hold down the rhythm. He’s gotta be up there among the best rhythm guitarists in the genre. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-some-relatively-untalented-members-of-otherwise-talented-bands/574681/70 "2011-03-15T16:41:22Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > I’m surprised this hasn’t been mentioned yet, but I’d have to say Lars Ulrich of Metallica is a perfect example. That he’s often regarded as a metal drumming god is a straight up insult to the genre. I even recall an interview with James Hetfield in which he said the main reason he started the band with him was because of his connections, because he was a bad drummer (can’t seem to find a cite, sorry). The story was that Lars had previously auditioned for James, and it had gone poorly. Lars had a crappy kit, and his hi-hat kept falling over. James kind of told him “don’t call us. we’ll call you,” then Lars called them sometime later (weeks, days, months, I don’t…sometime later) and said he had a connection (Brian Slagel of Metal Blade Records) and could get them onto a planned compilation album of metal bands (_Metal Massacre 1_). Lars had told Slagel he had a band when he didn’t, but after he called James, they managed to get a band together with Ron McGovney (kind of the Pete Best of Metallica) on bass, and Dave Mustaine on lead guitar. They recorded their first song “Hit the Lights” for _Metal Massacre_ a few months after forming and the rest is history. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-some-relatively-untalented-members-of-otherwise-talented-bands/574681/71 "2011-03-15T17:18:11Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > I’m surprised this hasn’t been mentioned yet, but I’d have to say Lars Ulrich of Metallica is a perfect example. That he’s often regarded as a metal drumming god is a straight up insult to the genre. I even recall an interview with James Hetfield in which he said the main reason he started the band with him was because of his connections, because he was a bad drummer (can’t seem to find a cite, sorry). > > Personally, I think his drumming lacks any semblance of creativity and shows little variation, particularly when contrasted with other contemporary metal drummers; worse, it definitely doesn’t age well because it sounds very flat compared to modern drummers, and the drum tracks are usually much more complicated when I hear Metallica covers. Also consider the level of talent that surrounds him. I think James Hetfields vocals were highly regarded for most of their careers, Cliff Burton and Jason Newsted were both very good bassists, and Kirk Hammett was a first class shredder. Ulrich’s lack of talent was blatantly apparent on the abomination called St. Anger in which the drums were turned up. > > It doesn’t help that he’s a giant douche too. Hetfield is clearly the heart of Metallica - the Keef AND Mick, I guess 😉 I never thought much of Ulrich one way or the other - but I do give him credit for innovating and laying down the blueprint for thrash drumming, along side other players. But I will acknowledge that when \*\*Sad But True \*\*came out on the Black Album, I tipped my hat - that, my friends, is a very durable groove and Lars holds up his end…dare I say he even swings? ETA: Oh, and as for Kiss - imho (I am decidedly not a fan), Paul and Gene are decent pop songwriters - enough to crank out the same album year after year for their adoring fans. As far as musicianship - the only one I would point to of the original four (before they brought in hired guns), was Ace Frehley - say what you will, but he was a solid, in-the-pocket lead player with good technique and a great tone. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-some-relatively-untalented-members-of-otherwise-talented-bands/574681/72 "2011-03-15T17:27:58Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > You have it backwards: the only reason as many people heard those albums as did was precisely because they were credited to the Doors. Those albums did sell; not in the numbers the Doors were accustomed to, but they charted respectably (though _Full Circle_ less so than _Other Voices_) and certainly didn’t go unheard. By contrast, once they started releasing music _not_ under the Doors name–Manzarek as a solo artist, doing some really good, adventurous stuff, and the remaining Doors (with new singer Jess Roden) evolving into the Butts Band–they flopped dismally. > > As for the quality of the albums, I will admit to never having given _Full Circle_ a totally fair shake, never having bought my own copy after being subjected to dreck like “I’m Horny, I’m Stoned,” “Variety Is the Spice of Life,” and “In the Eye of the Sun” on the previous album. But to my mind, they had exactly one really good song–“Ships w/Sails”–over the course of two albums. I suspect that the first album would have sold well out of sympathy, curiosity and inertia if nothing else. It probably did, in fact. After people realized that the Doors without Jim were nothing more than a talented ensemble instead of the dangerous, on the edge psychedelic/hardcore blues band they had been in the past they walked away. Jim was the face, image, and perceived talent/leader of the band. The other stuff, the stuff they did solo, wouldn’t have done well under any circumstances because it all had a different focus. Imagine Grace Slick, Marty Balin or Paul Kantner releasing a solo blues-type album in 1972, how well would that have gone over? With regard to the “dreck” from the post-Morrison albums, nothing there could ever be as insipid as “Satisfaction”, easily the most overrated song from the most overrated band in recording history. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-some-relatively-untalented-members-of-otherwise-talented-bands/574681/73 "2011-03-15T17:38:08Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Nothing there could ever be as insipid as “Satisfaction”, easily the most overrated song from the most overrated band in recording history. You’re welcome to start a thread based on that assertion/opinion and see where it goes - hint: not well. Okay - I have your assertion, er, opinion, about Andy Summers and now this. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-some-relatively-untalented-members-of-otherwise-talented-bands/574681/74 "2011-03-15T17:44:24Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > You’re welcome to start a thread based on that assertion/opinion and see where it goes - hint: not well. > > Okay - I have your assertion, er, opinion, about Andy Summers and now this. Got it. I told you you probably wouldn’t agree with anything I said, didn’t I? If my existence here were based upon pop culture likes and dislikes I would be damn near universally reviled. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-some-relatively-untalented-members-of-otherwise-talented-bands/574681/75 "2011-03-15T17:49:27Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > I told you you probably wouldn’t agree with anything I said, didn’t I? If my existence here were based upon pop culture likes and dislikes I would be damn near universally reviled. A point I am not going to argue with. But, okay then, frame your statements about songs like Satisfaction - largely considered one THE defining singles of the rock era, bar none - with a bit more context and consideration. Otherwise you come across as someone wholly ignorant of the history surrounding this topic… I state I don’t like things all the time - I hate The Doors for instance, and think that Morrison represents everything pretentiously laughable, faux-dangerous and douchey in rock and roll - but I readily acknowledge their enduring popularity and the fact that some of their songs are well-crafted and performed… ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-some-relatively-untalented-members-of-otherwise-talented-bands/574681/76 "2011-03-15T17:52:51Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > I suspect that the first album would have sold well out of sympathy, curiosity and inertia if nothing else. It probably did, in fact. After people realized that the Doors without Jim were nothing more than a talented ensemble instead of the dangerous, on the edge psychedelic/hardcore blues band they had been in the past they walked away. Jim was the face, image, and perceived talent/leader of the band. All agreed. > [@](#): > > The other stuff, the stuff they did solo, wouldn’t have done well under any circumstances because it all had a different focus. Imagine Grace Slick, Marty Balin or Paul Kantner releasing a solo blues-type album in 1972, how well would that have gone over? But look at what really did happen: the last couple of Jefferson Airplane albums were big hits. Then Slick and Kantner made an album very much continuing in the vein of those post-Balin Airplane albums (_Baron Von Tollbooth & the Chrome Nun_) but under their own names, and it bombed. So they started billing themselves as Jefferson Starship, and hey presto: back to the upper reaches of the charts. Moral: What’s in a name? Sales, boy, sales! ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-some-relatively-untalented-members-of-otherwise-talented-bands/574681/77 "2011-03-15T18:01:45Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > ETA: Oh, and as for Kiss - imho (I am decidedly not a fan), Paul and Gene are decent pop songwriters - enough to crank out the same album year after year for their adoring fans. As far as musicianship - the only one I would point to of the original four (before they brought in hired guns), was Ace Frehley - say what you will, but he was a solid, in-the-pocket lead player with good technique and a great tone. I have always dug Ace’s solos for one reason: You can sing them! Maybe it’s because I listened to KISS nonstop when I was 12-13 and it’s just muscle memory, but there’s a certain pithy melodiousness to them that I think many lead guitarists more highly rated than Ace could use a dose of. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-some-relatively-untalented-members-of-otherwise-talented-bands/574681/78 "2011-03-15T18:03:02Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Andy Summers of the Police was pretty ordinary, especially when compared to Sting and Stewart Copeland. It wouldn’t be the Police without him, but he didn’t do much to distinguish himself. I’m not piling on… wait, yes I am. Summers is likely the _most_ talented member of The Police (if one could even rank them). His longevity in music (The New Animals, Zoot Money before The Police, tons of session, soundtrack, and jazz work post Police) and his versatility - and his tone - make him a legend. The guitar synths he brought to Sting’s music gave it that spacey feel (see Don’t Stand So Close to Me, Secret Journey for examples). Pretty much every guitarist in the early 80s was trying to channel Summers. Also disagree about Rick Buckler from The Jam. Great drummer. Ever hear “Precious” or “Funeral Pyre?” Foxton and Weller were amazingly talented and he might have been less so than either of them, but still awesome. Someone mentioned upthread Paul Simonon. Brilliant guy and fit The Clash perfectly, but Mick and Joe often played his parts on the early albums. Topper played bass on “Rock The Casbah.” I would say Adam Clayton of U2 as well. Larry Mullen is a decent drummer. There is nothing exceptional about Mr. Clayton (aside from being the lone Englishman in a band full of Irish dudes). Again, sure he’s a nice guy, has had some good moments, but there’s a reason why beginning bassists like to play along to _The Joshua Tree_. Oasis went through a secession of drummers. The first guy they had that played on _Definitely Maybe_ wasn’t much cop. There’s a whole category for the Bez-types. Paul Rutherford from Frankie Goes to Hollywood just wore a lot of leather. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-some-relatively-untalented-members-of-otherwise-talented-bands/574681/79 "2011-03-15T18:07:14Z")
> [@An\_Arky](#): > > … there’s a certain pithy melodiousness to them … Dude, I think Ace’s head just exploded. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-some-relatively-untalented-members-of-otherwise-talented-bands/574681/80 "2011-03-15T18:07:54Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Oh, and speaking of U2 - for this thread, gotta go with \*\*Adam Clayton \*\*and **Larry Mullen**. Luckiest rhythm section on the face of the earth. And not just because they weren’t involved in the Spider-Man musical! I’m not a big fan of the Red Hot Chili Peppers to begin with, but I think Anthony Keidis was very fortunate to have gotten together with Flea. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-some-relatively-untalented-members-of-otherwise-talented-bands/574681.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-were-some-relatively-untalented-members-of-otherwise-talented-bands/574681.md?page=5)